J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

[SDWatcher]

It shouldn't require 7 pages of detailed scrutinization, and it wouldn't if a certain someone hadn't kept inventing new excuses to keep insisting that his hacked together google translated comprehension of Gongke's comments were correct.

Keeping this forum healthy is more important.

And yes, it could have just been a careless typo, but that seems unnecessarily speculative to me (it adds more information than is there, or is necessary), especially considering that this isn't the first time Gongke has made mention of other people seeing the nozzle even if they haven't seen the whole WS-15 before.

A simple careless typo or bad choices of words, are less speculative than trying to twist the language out of shape through 7 pages.

All languages have inherent grammatical logic. Contemporary Chinese doesn't have as many rigid grammar conventions, but that doesn't mean there are no common tendencies and rules.

As I have already mentioned earlier, native Chinese mostly don't use grammar. It is what it is. You need to explain a simple sentence with some 200 words of rules, that the native Chinese don't even use, is only because, you don't know the language well enough to really understand.

 

[latenlazy]

Keeping this forum healthy is more important.


A simple careless typo or bad choices of words, are less speculative than trying to twist the language out of shape through 7 pages.

I’m not twisting the language out of shape. I’m explaining it to people who don’t have natural comprehension for it.

If you want to keep this forum healthy take it up with the guy who started this entire fiasco with bad translations and interpretations, not the guys trying to patch up the misunderstanding. And ditch the pejorative attitude while you’re at it.

As I have already mentioned earlier, native Chinese mostly don't use grammar. It is what it is. You need to explain a simple sentence with some 200 words of rules, that the native Chinese don't even use, is only because, you don't know the language well enough to really understand.

Uh. Dude I’ve been speaking Chinese my whole life. Don’t lecture me about my own language and how it works, and certainly don’t pitch this BS that Chinese doesn’t have grammar. All languages have grammar. It’s why you can’t just say anything in any word order and have it make sense. Without a notion of grammar there wouldn’t be cases where some sentences sound weird to the native ear. In case you don’t have kid relatives in China or maybe belong to the generation and cohort that was unfortunate enough to have experienced piecemeal education, they actually do teach basic grammar in China to kids in grade school these days.

No one’s laying down 200 words of rules. Unpacking a sentence and its logic to someone who doesn’t understand the language, even if the sentence is basic, isn’t always straightforward, especially when they don’t seem to want to accept the simplest intuitions. Maybe you don’t understand Chinese in a formal enough sense to actually do this for others. That doesn’t mean people who do are inauthentic.

 

[SDWatcher]

And ditch the pejorative attitude while you’re at it.

Just look at how you write. And you want to claim that, you aren't contributing to the fiasco...…..

Uh. Dude I’ve been speaking Chinese my whole life. Don’t lecture me about my own language and how it works, and certainly don’t pitch this BS that Chinese doesn’t have grammar. In case you don’t have kids or maybe belong to the generation and cohort that was unfortunate enough to have experienced piecemeal education, they actually do teach basic grammar to kids in grade school in China these days.

Strange. I am native Chinese and all the native Chinese I know don't use grammar, simply because it isn't necessary. We use model sentences, paragraphs, and essays. With enough daily practice and usage, developing a natural feel for the language. So it becomes, it is what it is, instinctively, without referencing any clumsy rules. If you still need grammar for Chinese, then you haven't yet learned the language, no matter how long you claim to have spoken Chinese. Did you learn Chinese in a foreign country? It is typical for them to use grammar for assistance.

 

[Tirdent]

Why would the fact that the WS-15/J-20 uses that specific TVC nozzle be a secret when we already know based on another leaker that the nozzle is currently being tested on a J-20.

Do we? As far as I can tell, the WS-10 variant seen in the J-20 merely has a stealthy variant of the non-TVC ejector nozzle from the basic WS-10.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the F100 and F135 don't seem to share the same nozzle.

Not the production F100 and the production F135, but the LOAN design which ended up on the F135 was flight tested on a F100 in a F-16 years before such a thing as a F135 even existed, at about the same time as the F-16 DSI test bed (though not the same airframe). Apart from the fact that the F-35 has only one engine and its nozzle lacks TVC capability, the parallels to the WS-10/J-10 and WS-15/J-20 are striking.

 

[SDWatcher]

No one’s laying down 200 words of rules. Unpacking a sentence and its logic to someone who doesn’t understand the language, even if the sentence is basic, isn’t always straightforward, especially when they don’t seem to want to accept the simplest intuitions. Maybe you don’t understand Chinese in a formal enough sense to actually do this for others. That doesn’t mean people who do are inauthentic.

You were only reciting rules that native Chinese don't even use, which led to more confusion. Maybe this is how you learned Chinese?

 

[latenlazy]

Do we? As far as I can tell, the WS-10 variant seen in the J-20 merely has a stealthy variant of the non-TVC ejector nozzle from the basic WS-10.

According to this drawing from the same person who first indicated we might see a J-10 with TVC and J-20s with sawtoothed nozzles, yes. There are supposedly two J-20s testing the WS-10 with sawtoothed nozzles, and another one testing TVC.

Not the production F100 and the production F135, but the LOAN design which ended up on the F135 was flight tested on a F100 in a F-16 years before such a thing as a F135 even existed, at about the same time as the F-16 DSI test bed (though not the same airframe). Apart from the fact that the F-35 has only one engine and its nozzle lacks TVC capability, the parallels to the WS-10/J-10 and WS-15/J-20 are striking.

It's not like the LOAN design used on the F-16 was exactly identical to what ended up being employed on the F135.

 

[taxiya]

@SDWatcher, I must say that it is very wrong to say Chinese language does not use grammar. Chinese language has its OWN grammar that is different from the Indo-European languages. That difference is not "no grammar" but different. Chinese language is analytical language, instead of using different word tenses and forms, Chinese use different qualifying words. In this case, Chinese is very unique among all languages on the planet.

Also you need to be aware that, being a native speaker does not mean you know the language from a linguistic ground. For example, many native English speakers have no clue why they speak in a certain order and using certain tense, meaning they don't know that they are following or making mistakes of English grammar. On the contrary, foreigners who studied English as second language could be more accurate in English grammar even though they are less capable in speaking because of their smaller vocabulary and phrases.

 

[latenlazy]

Just look at how you write. And you want to claim that, you aren't contributing to the fiasco...…..

I started off responding quite politely to you. If someone responds negatively to another person's pejorative attitude it's not the former person that's the problem.

Ah, but you're definitely resolving the fiasco by extending this conversation to attack the authenticity of my Chinese. Maybe you should look to yourself before accusing others of derailing this thread.

Strange. I am native Chinese and all the native Chinese I know don't use grammar, simply because it isn't necessary. We use model sentences, paragraphs, and essays. With enough daily practice and usage, developing a natural feel for the language. So it becomes, it is what it is, instinctively, without referencing any clumsy rules. If you still need grammar for Chinese, then you haven't yet learned the language, no matter how long you claim to have spoken Chinese. Did you learn Chinese in a foreign country? It is typical for them to use grammar for assistance.

If all the native Chinese you know don't use grammar then they must not have gone to elementary school. You do know that model sentences is *grammar* right? That's what it's meant to teach? Maybe the problem is not my Chinese, but your English, and you don't actually know what the definition of grammar is.

I learned Chinese in China, *because I was born in China*.

 

[latenlazy]

@SDWatcher, I must say that it is very wrong to say Chinese language does not use grammar. Chinese language has its OWN grammar that is different from the Indo-European languages. That difference is not "no grammar" but different. Chinese language is analytical language, instead of using different word tenses and forms, Chinese use different qualifying words. In this case, Chinese is very unique among all languages on the planet.

Also you need to be aware that, being a native speaker does not mean you know the language from a linguistic ground. For example, many native English speakers have no clue why they speak in a certain order and using certain tense, meaning they don't know that they are following or making mistakes of English grammar. On the contrary, foreigners who studied English as second language could be more accurate in English grammar even though they are less capable in speaking because of their smaller vocabulary and phrases.

Yep, and it turns out learning how grammar constructions work even for you own language is quite useful, *especially when you're trying to explain how to translate something to a foreign audience*.

 

[taxiya]

Just look at how you write. And you want to claim that, you aren't contributing to the fiasco...…..



Strange. I am native Chinese and all the native Chinese I know don't use grammar, simply because it isn't necessary. We use model sentences, paragraphs, and essays. With enough daily practice and usage, developing a natural feel for the language. So it becomes, it is what it is, instinctively, without referencing any clumsy rules. If you still need grammar for Chinese, then you haven't yet learned the language, no matter how long you claim to have spoken Chinese. Did you learn Chinese in a foreign country? It is typical for them to use grammar for assistance.

Your natural feel of Chinese is the same natural feel of a native English speaker, it doesn't mean either of you are aware of your grammars. Believe me, when I started to learn my third foreign language, I frequently asked the native speakers for right grammars, they could only tell me "just do this way, don't ask why".