J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

[siegecrossbow]

I don't think so for two reasons.

1. Secondly, the West is not impartial to this prejudice; they are served by it and thus will not let it dissipate even for truth. The key selling point of Western goods (including military hardware) is that despite being expensive, they are perceived to be of higher quality. So long as this prejudice helps their businesses, the West will desperately want to keep it in play to protect their livelihoods and wealth. If they let it die simply because it is not true, then what business is there left to do? You're admitting to the world that you are selling comparable or inferior goods to the Chinese at higher prices; game over. In self-interest, Western countries won't even buy from each other if the prejudice against Chinese quality were to be eliminated. Thus, by any means, media, false interpretations, fabrication, etc..., they must keep this force in play. Just like Ford and Chevrolet can never admit that the other can make better cars no matter, the West can never admit that Chinese quality can match.surpass their own. It is a matter of survival, not honesty.

That's not entirely true. We see positive reporting of DJI drones and lately, Vivo phones by the Western media as well.

 

[manqiangrexue]

That's not entirely true. We see positive reporting of DJI drones and lately, Vivo phones by the Western media as well.

Nothing (except maybe the laws of physics) will hold true if you accept exceptions/outliers as proof against a trend. Even the prejudice that men are stronger than women can be made to appear untrue if you find regular men and compare them to a 120kg female weightlifter. I'm talking about the general trend and it's not an issue of contention whether or not Western sources show a trend of downplaying Chinese quality.

 

[vesicles]

Well, Japanese products were considered inferior in quality in the 1970’s. It took them nearly 20 years to convince the West. Now “Made in Japan” is a sign of quality.

Most of the developing countries start out making inferior goods quality-wise. Because of the financial limitations, most of them start with making cheap goods. Cheap means low quality. So most of the developing countries are always associated with “inferior quality”. Most of times, it takes decades for these developing countries to shake the “poor quality” image. It was like that for the UK, the US, Germany and Japan, and now Soth Korea.

This is compounded by the fact that established (developed) nations don’t usually want to give up their position as the leaders. Emotionally and psychologically, giving up their superiority to previously inferior people is extremely difficult. This is only human nature.

Before the WWI, The US was fast moving up the economic ladder. This was equally unacceptable to the Europeans. Everything about the Yankees was laughed at, how they dressed, how they ate, how they talked, etc. the central theme? “These Yankees are uneducated and uncivilized...” “The only thing they have is money...”.

It took two world wars for Europe to finally accept the US.

I’m not saying what they are doing to China is right. I’m just saying it’s only human nature. Be patient. Every developing nation has to go through the same thing. China is going through it now. And China will get passed this.

 

[latenlazy]

...can we focus conversation back on the J-20 and not the desire for national approval and recognition?

 

[AssassinsMace]

It's interesting how the movie Top Gun brought forth the trouble of the US losing aircraft in conflict during the Cold War because somewhere they lost the importance of dogfighting skills. Now because of the age of stealth it's all about getting close enough to fire off missiles before the enemy knows you're there. Dogfighting not important again? So what's more important now is having better avionics and better longer range missiles than your enemy. That says better performing engines are not that important. Is flying at full throttle 100% of the time with wider turns good for dogfighting? In a dogfight, they'll be flying pretty much at the same speeds. And in Top Gun the F-14 was bigger than the aircraft it fought against. Size didn't matter then did it?

 

[SamuraiBlue]

Well, Japanese products were considered inferior in quality in the 1970’s. It took them nearly 20 years to convince the West. Now “Made in Japan” is a sign of quality.

Sorry but made in Japan was already recognized from the 70's.
Sony Trinitron was a top seller in the end of the 70's.
Datsun Z cars, Honda CIVIC was also highly recognized in the 70's.

You need to do some research before making claims.

 

[plawolf]

...can we focus conversation back on the J-20 and not the desire for national approval and recognition?

It’s not about seeking national approval or recognition, it’s about pointing out that so called western defence ‘experts’ are almost certain to have no more information than we do about the likes of the J20, which is very little, so the primary source of their smug pronaucements about the J20 is based on little more than their own preconceptions and prejudices.

These debates never start because someone posts a western article about how amazingballz the J20 is.

Frankingly, 99% of western military experts knows only as much about Chinese defence as what is publically available, and the 1% who might know something more shouldn’t be talking to journalists about it.

All Chinese military threads would be far cleaner if such trash articles were not brought into them in the first place.

Personally, unless a piece written by a western defence journalist has first hand accounts from export users of Chinese equipment, their piece about Chinese defence isn’t even worth my time to read.

 

[broadsword]

Sorry but made in Japan was already recognized from the 70's.
Sony Trinitron was a top seller in the end of the 70's.
Datsun Z cars, Honda CIVIC was also highly recognized in the 70's.

You need to do some research before making claims.

Apart from the top Japanese brands, the others were only average, not crap, but comparable to the Western average.

 

[plawolf]

It's interesting how the movie Top Gun brought forth the trouble of the US losing aircraft in conflict during the Cold War because somewhere they lost the importance of dogfighting skills. Now because of the age of stealth it's all about getting close enough to fire off missiles before the enemy knows you're there. Dogfighting not important again? So what's more important now is having better avionics and better longer range missiles than your enemy. That says better performing engines are not that important. Is flying at full throttle 100% of the time with wider turns good for dogfighting? In a dogfight, they'll be flying pretty much at the same speeds. And in Top Gun the F-14 was bigger than the aircraft it fought against. Size didn't matter then did it?

Top Gun, and the Vietnam war which inspired it, was to point out the importance of learning and practicing dogfighting skills.

As far as I am aware, that lesson is not one the US has since forgotten, since Red Flag and other exercises that focus heavily on dogfighting is still a core part of western air combat training.

And in the age of stealth, with detection and lock on ranges shrinking drastically, and BVRAAM effectiveness drastically reduced in a stealth-on-stealth scenario (which is one the J20’s designers should have had as a primary for the J20’s intended mission), dogfighting is going to be far more important than any time since the introduction of BVRAAMs.

And that is reflected in the J20 design. A design which acknowledges and compensates for China’s historic weakness in turbofan engines.

The J20 is going to be handicapped in WVR until it gets the WS15. But even with AL31s, it is performing impressively in DACT against other PLAAF platforms.

If it’s rumoured empty weight is even in the ballpark range, once the J20 gets the WS15, and even accounting for some significant weight gains subsequently (for the engines, structural changes and the addition/upgrading of equipment currently omitted to save weight), it will blow everything else out of the water in terms of TWR, and be a strong position to absolutely dominate anything and everything it comes across in WVR.

 

[fatfreddy]

Don't post troll articles.

Sorry didn't intend to