J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

[vesicles]

As I've said, it's my opinion. As can be seen in the many clips on youtube, F-22 and T-50 frequently uses the TVC for post stall maneuvers after some very tight turns and having to maintain a high AOA for some time for them to recover. It makes for some nice maneuvers but something a pilot wouldn't do in a dogfight. I've seen the J-20 doing an even tighter half turn (about 5 secs) without stalling (and without slowing down at a high AOA) and going straight back to the direction it came from.

I guess you can also say that the J-20 would not even fly if you take out its AL-31 engines. Thus, the J-20 is not even an airplane because it can't fly without its engines.

TVC is part of the F-22's complete package. You can't ignore it when considering its function.

 

[manqiangrexue]

I guess you can also say that the J-20 would not even fly if you take out its AL-31 engines. Thus, the J-20 is not even an airplane because it can't fly without its engines.

TVC is part of the F-22's complete package. You can't ignore it when considering its function.

I don't think he's saying that we should consider the Raptor without TVC. I think he's referring to the problem with the F-22 that the Eurofighter pilot highlighted saying that when F-22 attempts to do extreme maneuvers with TVC, it bleeds a lot of energy and needs time to get back into a high energy state, hence why these moves are more crowd-pleasers rather than actual combat tactics as it could leave a Raptor very vulnerable right after.

I really don't know which is more maneuverable. Nobody else does either. F-22 has more powerful engines with TVC. J-20 is a delta-canard, which is a base design that specializes in high alpha and maneuverability. How much does J-20 weigh? Are we to consider upcoming WS-15? Too many questions and variables. Pointless to fight on this topic in my opinion.

 

[Blackstone]

I guess you can also say that the J-20 would not even fly if you take out its AL-31 engines. Thus, the J-20 is not even an airplane because it can't fly without its engines.

TVC is part of the F-22's complete package. You can't ignore it when considering its function.

Point of order; without its engines, the J-20 is little better than either a fancy mock-up or a hanger queen. So, it that an airplane or an expensive hobby?

 

[Iron Man]

I don't think he's saying that we should consider the Raptor without TVC. I think he's referring to the problem with the F-22 that the Eurofighter pilot highlighted saying that when F-22 attempts to do extreme maneuvers with TVC, it bleeds a lot of energy and needs time to get back into a high energy state, hence why these moves are more crowd-pleasers rather than actual combat tactics as it could leave a Raptor very vulnerable right after.

IMO it is misguided to dismiss the F-22's TVC by pointing to extreme maneuvers and then concluding they are for show, therefore TVC is useless in actual combat. This is a non sequitur, and I have no doubt that both LM and the USAF do not consider TVC useless. You are right that nobody knows which is more maneuverable, but certainly the TVC on the F-22 and the lack of it on the J-20 does not help J-20's case in claiming greater maneuverability.

 

[A.Man]

deleted

 

[manqiangrexue]

Point of order; without its engines, the J-20 is little better than either a fancy mock-up or a hanger queen. So, it that an airplane or an expensive hobby?

 

[davidau]

wow, baby you are a beauty...

 

[manqiangrexue]

IMO it is misguided to dismiss the F-22's TVC by pointing to extreme maneuvers and then concluding they are for show, therefore TVC is useless in actual combat. This is a non sequitur, and I have no doubt that both LM and the USAF do not consider TVC useless. You are right that nobody knows which is more maneuverable, but certainly the TVC on the F-22 and the lack of it on the J-20 does not help J-20's case in claiming greater maneuverability.

Oh, yes I agree that F-22's TVC absolutely cannot be dismissed and cannot be considered as just for airshows (as that would be a monumental failure in design), which is why I included it among the F-22's merits against the J-20 being more maneuverable. BUT the point is, how much ability does it confer? The Raptor has undertaken many awe-inspiring maneuvers, often manipulating the jet while stalled, which may lead many to quickly infer that since other aircraft may not be able to do that, therefore Raptor is king in maneuverability. However, when the Raptor performed mock combat with the Eurofighter, its myriad of abilities did not save it against the delta canard (for reason of severe energy bleeding during aggressive TVC-powered turns as previously outlined), indicating that these abilities may not confer as much combat advantage as one would think looking at airshows. So the question is, how much of the Raptor's maneuverability as demonstrated at airshow displays can actually be brought into combat?

 

[Air Force Brat]

Deino, there are people like that on every forum.

Coming to this article, I find the tone disturbing. Is it not arrogant to assert that Chinese do not know what they are doing with stealth? Do the contributors of that article feel that Chinese have money to waste on showy but useless projects?

I believe that what he is talking about is that the J-20 does have a few extra control surfaces, canards and vents, that could cause RCS numbers to be a bit higher than optimum. I believe the author of the article has "mischaracterized" the unnamed LockMart employee for the purpose of "sensationalizing" the article, much the same as those who continue to "beat on the F-22, F-35, J-20, PAK-FA, or the FC-31, folks love to criticize these sweet little flying machines, each of which, has her strengths and weaknesses!

I agree Zahid, we ought be more respectful of one anothers favorite airplanes, and the J-20 is a very fine Fighter Aircraft, and very capable, it is utter foolishness to "write it off", and that kind of arrogance has lead to lots of "bad moves", and dumb articles.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Right. Talking down your opponent's capability and aggrandizing your own is very much a big part of military strategy.

Imo, there is already enough evidence to suggest that the J-20 is the most maneuverable of all the Gen 5 fighters.

I wouldn't go that far Bub, that likely belongs to PAK-FA, which honestly is the least stealthy, but possibly the most agile! anyway the F-35 does not have OVT, and supermaneuverability is not the necessity that it used to be, as we are all moving to BVR engagement!

Trust me, the J-20 is a very maneuverable, very high performance aircraft, and will be even more so once equipped with the WS-15.

As the only active pilot here, I'm well versed in this aspect of aircraft development, and I do understand the physics, I can't do the math, but I can "see" LIFT, really its not that hard, well maybe for "ground pounders"? AFB says this is a very revolutionary airplane, and a very fine fighter aircraft, with plenty of fuel, and long range AAM it better be on your list of "things to watch out for", believe me, no ONE, here in the US who are conversant with this subject and in da bidnezz will disagree with that assessment!