J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

[Inst]

The best part of Blackstone's tripe this time was the part where the article claimed that the J-20 is a strike fighter and the F-35 is not, when the F-35 is officially designated a strike fighter instead of an air superiority fighter. You'd think the Strike in the Joint Strike Fighter designation would give it away.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Somebody punch this idiot, please.

Yep, he does make a number of in-accurate and off balance statements, and no doubt he's not looking at the same airplane we are! He's putting a feather in his cap, and calling it Macaroni, kinda like "Yankee Doodle Dandy"! Heh, Heh,

 

[Air Force Brat]

As I've said, it's my opinion. As can be seen in the many clips on youtube, F-22 and T-50 frequently uses the TVC for post stall maneuvers after some very tight turns and having to maintain a high AOA for some time for them to recover. It makes for some nice maneuvers but something a pilot wouldn't do in a dogfight. I've seen the J-20 doing an even tighter half turn (about 5 secs) without stalling (and without slowing down at a high AOA) and going straight back to the direction it came from.

OVT is an awesome tool to increase "pitch rate", it is useful and usable at any speed, the F-22 doesn't bleed a nickels more energy than the J-20 in any configuration, when you are maneuvering your burn energy to create lift, cost just the same for each of us, Chinese, American, Russian, we all pay "mother nature the same price, for the same product" its just physics and yes if you put all five of the actual flying fifth gen aircraft on the exact same trac through the sky, one would excel here, but give little there, but theres not a $1.00 worth of difference in the raw!

OVT is kool, it works, but its expensive, moves your center of gravity aft, (rather than the optimal center of lift), and expensive, labor intensive to maintain??? what do you want?? what can you do with what you have?? everybody plays in the same ball-park!

 

[Air Force Brat]

Point of order; without its engines, the J-20 is little better than either a fancy mock-up or a hanger queen. So, it that an airplane or an expensive hobby?

The J-20 is fine with the AL-31s its flying with now, it will get better with the WS-15s, come on Stoney, we agree on almost everything Bub, give the guys a break on their airplane, AFB thinks its pretty awesome, like everything else, there are trade-offs...

Looking back to the past, look at the Mig-15 and the F-86, both very deadly when flown by someone who knew what he was doing, these "new girls are deadly" even with the "average Joe", they are all beautiful, and deadly! we really don't need to get ugly to prove that, really, it would be a dumb move all around! Future air combat is gonna be BVR, whoever sees and locks on the other guy first wins!

 

[Air Force Brat]

Oh, yes I agree that F-22's TVC absolutely cannot be dismissed and cannot be considered as just for airshows (as that would be a monumental failure in design), which is why I included it among the F-22's merits against the J-20 being more maneuverable. BUT the point is, how much ability does it confer? The Raptor has undertaken many awe-inspiring maneuvers, often manipulating the jet while stalled, which may lead many to quickly infer that since other aircraft may not be able to do that, therefore Raptor is king in maneuverability. However, when the Raptor performed mock combat with the Eurofighter, its myriad of abilities did not save it against the delta canard (for reason of severe energy bleeding during aggressive TVC-powered turns as previously outlined), indicating that these abilities may not confer as much combat advantage as one would think looking at airshows. So the question is, how much of the Raptor's maneuverability as demonstrated at airshow displays can actually be brought into combat?

Good points, but trust the old AFB, in the real world, Mano-a-Mano, the F-22 beats the Typhoon everyday, you can't shoot what you can't see?? now in the Red Flag, the opposition was able to "regenerate- and that particular airplane had a Raptor in front of him, who thought he was still dead and not a factor", fudging the numbers ain't real life, even if you're the Trumpster! we all play by the same rules..

OVT increases pitch rate on the Raptor, you don't have to go post stall, and no, in actual combat you wouldn't do that, if ya do you get shot down! even the greenest green bean in the F-22 knows that, they take you out and let you prove it to yourself on purpose, that's why we do "Red Flag"!

 

[Lethe]

Why the assumption that J-20 won't eventually have TVC? It would seem a logical development once they have thrust up to par with a new engine. Unlike the Europeans I don't think China is going to skimp on developing J-20 to the fullest extent, and unlike F-22 it doesn't seem likely that the program will be starved in favour of another in the foreseeable future.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Why the assumption that J-20 won't eventually have TVC? It would seem a logical development once they have thrust up to par with a new engine. Unlike the Europeans I don't think China is going to skimp on developing J-20 to the fullest extent, and unlike F-22 it doesn't seem likely that the program will be starved in favour of another in the foreseeable future.

Well I initially expected that until the Eng gave me a little education on the J-20, I believe Siege also translated a paper by Dr. Song, and Dr. Song realized that the engines likely would not be ready when his airplane was, and that OVT might not be an option.

That's why the J-20 has "long throw", "distant coupled canards" to increase pitch rate, and ventral fins to provide yaw stability and a forward pitching moment at very high angles of attack. Dr. Song "insisted" that the J-20 be "recoverable from Post Stall Flight" without OVT! Very smart man, very smart airplane, looks like it flies beautifully, if someone offered to let me fly one, I wouldn't hesitate with about 10 hours of simulator time.

That FCS is murderously complex, and they appear to have gotten it very right the first time around! Good show Chengdu!

They are very proud of this airplane, and rightfully so, I'm proud of it too, and all I did was get a "front row seat" here on SDF with my Buds. Its been a very exciting experience to get to see this aircraft move from first flight to its reveal at Zuhai, I hope next time they get one of the "factory jocks" to give a 6-8 minute max effort "flying display"!

 

[Blackstone]

The J-20 is fine with the AL-31s its flying with now, it will get better with the WS-15s, come on Stoney, we agree on almost everything Bub, give the guys a break on their airplane, AFB thinks its pretty awesome, like everything else, there are trade-offs...

Looking back to the past, look at the Mig-15 and the F-86, both very deadly when flown by someone who knew what he was doing, these "new girls are deadly" even with the "average Joe", they are all beautiful, and deadly! we really don't need to get ugly to prove that, really, it would be a dumb move all around! Future air combat is gonna be BVR, whoever sees and locks on the other guy first wins!

Well Brat, I think you know I like the J-20 and I think it's a great accomplishment by the PRC. But, it's also important we hear from critics of the plane, especially experts and engineers from advanced defense industries, or from high-ranking military officers.

 

[vesicles]

Well Brat, I think you know I like the J-20 and I think it's a great accomplishment by the PRC. But, it's also important we hear from critics of the plane, especially experts and engineers from advanced defense industries, or from high-ranking military officers.

What we need is some kind of professional publications in peer reviewed journals and authored by the experts themselves, not by layman journalists who quote experts. Often times, these layman journalists quote wrong even with the best of intentions. Believe me, I'm speaking with personal experience...

Let's see if we can find any western publications discussing the J-20 in peer reviewed engineering journals.

 

[Lethe]

Well I initially expected that until the Eng gave me a little education on the J-20, I believe Siege also translated a paper by Dr. Song, and Dr. Song realized that the engines likely would not be ready when his airplane was, and that OVT might not be an option.

That's why the J-20 has "long throw", "distant coupled canards" to increase pitch rate, and ventral fins to provide yaw stability and a forward pitching moment at very high angles of attack. Dr. Song "insisted" that the J-20 be "recoverable from Post Stall Flight" without OVT!

Just because J-20 was not built around TVC doesn't mean it can't benefit from TVC as Su-30SM/Su-35 do and Typhoon could've with more funding.

But, it's also important we hear from critics of the plane, especially experts and engineers from advanced defense industries, or from high-ranking military officers.

When you can find such figures saying something meaningful, let us know. There certainly wasn't anything of the sort in the linked article.