J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

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Zahid

Junior Member
Deino, there are people like that on every forum.

Coming to this article, I find the tone disturbing. Is it not arrogant to assert that Chinese do not know what they are doing with stealth? Do the contributors of that article feel that Chinese have money to waste on showy but useless projects?
 

Insignius

Junior Member
Just them throwing insults.

Again, all China-reporting by the Western press follows a clear pattern: "China is incompetent and deceptively weak, but still you need to take care of them because they are bastards who can only win by backstabbing and using forbidden weapons."

To make China appear weak is not in their interest, since it will defeat their own fearmongering propaganda that serves to both keep their allies in line against the "common threat to freedom" that is China and to legitimate more defense spending, but on the other hand, a propaganda that makes China appear too strong would also defeat the purpose, since it would make their allies abandon their post in fear of Chinese strength and make them copy Duterte.

The best outcome of their propaganda is to make China appear like North Korea, a comically evil but incompetent country that should be feared for their unpredictable and backstabbing ways, but should not be feared for their non-existing strength.

It is just too bad that China seemingly plays along, since Chinese secrecy and ambiguity in military matters has the effect that it basically hands over the interpretive predominance to the Western propaganda organs.
So, as long as China does not show their strength, for example by openly stating what performance parameters the J-20 have or how many nukes China possesses, China cannot complain when the Western propaganda pushes through their claims that China is incompetent, weak and comically stupid-evil.

China should understand that world-opinion and deterrence doesnt work like a court-case, where the defendant can remain silent and let the lawyer speak for him. In the real world, remaining silent about oneselves means that you are what your enemies say about you. And if they say that you are weak and all people shouldnt respect your rights and interests because you are helpless in the face of violence, chances are that people will go and mug you. In that case, it doesnt matter whether you really arent helpless and weak - the fact that people already attempted to mug you and disrespect you is a big loss for you already.

China really should stop playing gentleman and start to reassert its interpretative authority - at least about oneself. You can see how well it works with Russia, who basically has nothing, but keeps talking about how strong they are... And it actually works, and noone dares to speak about blocking Russian access to Crimea, for example.
 
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Quickie

Colonel
But according to experts, the J-20 is not a fighter, not a dogfighter, not stealthy, and not at all like the F-22 or F-35 [....]

What the J-20 lacks in stealth and dogfighting ability it makes up for by focusing on a single, comparatively soft type of target. Unlike the US, which has fielded extremely stealthy aircraft, China lacks the experience to create a plane that baffles radars from all angles

Right. Talking down your opponent's capability and aggrandizing your own is very much a big part of military strategy.

Imo, there is already enough evidence to suggest that the J-20 is the most maneuverable of all the Gen 5 fighters.
 

vesicles

Colonel
Right. Talking down your opponent's capability and aggrandizing your own is very much a big part of military strategy.

Imo, there is already enough evidence to suggest that the J-20 is the most maneuverable of all the Gen 5 fighters.

I wouldn't go that far... I'm not sure the J-20 can match the F-22...
 

zaphd

New Member
Registered Member
This portion of the article intrigues me the most:


I would love to know who this person is, which division he works in, and what concepts he is referring to.
Wouldn't we all. But even in avweek or flight global when they get someone in the western industry with a technical background to comment on eastern designs the attribution is usually equally vague from what I've read over the years. It's a secretive industry.

I would consider that comment from the LM employee the only relevant thing in the article. Then again LM is working on potential 6th gen designs and something that is a deal breaker there could be an acceptable design trade off in the parameter space China is working with on the J-20.
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
I was referring to just the maneuverability part. It's difficult to conclude though on the other departments due to lack of data.
I'm not even sure you could conclude that either. The J-20 would have a hard time matching the thrust vectoring capabilities of the F-22, not having thrust vectoring itself.
 

Quickie

Colonel
I'm not even sure you could conclude that either. The J-20 would have a hard time matching the thrust vectoring capabilities of the F-22, not having thrust vectoring itself.

As I've said, it's my opinion. As can be seen in the many clips on youtube, F-22 and T-50 frequently uses the TVC for post stall maneuvers after some very tight turns and having to maintain a high AOA for some time for them to recover. It makes for some nice maneuvers but something a pilot wouldn't do in a dogfight. I've seen the J-20 doing an even tighter half turn (about 5 secs) without stalling (and without slowing down at a high AOA) and going straight back to the direction it came from.
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
As I've said, it's my opinion. As can be seen in the many clips on youtube, F-22 and T-50 frequently uses the TVC for post stall maneuvers after some very tight turns and having to maintain a high AOA for some time for them to recover. It makes for some nice maneuvers but something a pilot wouldn't do in a dogfight. I've seen the J-20 doing an even tighter half turn (about 5 secs) without stalling (and without slowing down at a high AOA) and going straight back to the direction it came from.
I see. So basically you're saying that the F-22 uses TVC for "nice maneuvers" but not for actual combat. This is what you have to conclude in order to justify your opinion that the F-22 is less maneuverable than the J-20. I guess the designers at Lockheed Martin should be fired for grievous incompetence and/or fraud against the American taxpayer.
 
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