J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

[b787]

You can call whatever you like supermaneuverbility. Buzz words and salesmanship don't win air combats. The ability to enter the battle with superior energy state, and keep that superiority through the battle, will likely decide far more air battles in a far wider range of circumstances than post stall maneuverability.

In most cases, the fighter that resorts to post stall maneuver has already decisively lost the previous round and is merely struggling to postpone death.

you have no idea what is post stall, fighters like F-22 are made in low numbers, F-35 lacks the performance of F-22, the jet is fat slow, has a tiny wing and is acknowledged to be at the most a peer of F-16 and in that even struggles, .


First a Fighter has volume limitation, it can not carry lots of weapons internally, the few AAMs it carries plus missiles fail too, there are also electronic ways of jamming your missiles. so once your jet has down 2-3 enemy fighters has lost all its missiles, but since the F-22 is built in small numbers with a real huge budget, the F-22 will need to go WVR combat, add SAM like S-400 and the legacy 4g fighters are going to be downed leaving only 5G to fight,

Since you know perfectly F-22 is heavy, has a fatter cross section than a trimmer Eurofighter, it will need to face close combat at WVR, that type of combat, means you will lose speed, then poststall comes in to play, once S-400 were deployed no F-15 or F-16 will enter Syrian airspace dominated by Russia.

But you are a bit confused, Russia knows the most important aspect is not stealth, since stealth is just radar signature reduction and is not 100% invisibility, for that you need supercruise.

The MiG-25 in 1991 in the gulf war was the best Iraqi fighter, why? speed, was the clue, the F-15 fired their AIM-120s and many times missed. AAMs do not fly for hours, they fly very few minutes at best, BVR missiles can be dodged, PAKFA has Variable geometry intake, which means besides supercruise can go beyond Mach 2 if needed this means your legacy F-15 or F-16 are at total disadvantage, even Su-35 supercruises.So do not try to lecture me, the best fighters will have TVC nozzles and supercruise, post stall has shown on a 1:1 fight to give an edge but supercruise means forcing the enemy fighter to deplete its load of crappy AAMs

 

[Engineer]

The USAF has discovered that f-15 can collaborate with f-22 in a manner than greatly increase the impact of the f-22 deployed. Furthermore, being not geometrically optimized for stealth, f-15 enjoy certain advantages f-22 can't match, for example, f-15 can be easily modified to house a substantially more powerful and more precise active electronically scanned radar antenna than the f-22 can accommodate in its stealth optimized nose.

This suggests the Chinese too can be thinking in terms economy of force, and wish to possess a conventional G4.5 force that can be used to magnify the impact of j-20. It is possible that given a few years of independent development, the Chinese too can match in a later version of j-11 what the Russians had accomplished in the Su-35. But the Chinese may be anxious to field a force of G4.5 fighters better than j-11b as soon as j-20 reaches initial operational condition, sooner than a major upgrade of j-11, as a back stop against escalation of situation in the South China Sea, or as insurance against consequence Taiwanese action with the transition of power to independence minded DPP.

So while any possible Chinese purchase of Su-35 might be spun as mainly related to technological acquisition, it could just as easily be spun as a mainly force composition move.

Had the Russians said they are willing to offer Su-35 with Chinese systems, the deal might be possible. However, as the Russian media reported, the Su-35 would only be sold with entirely Russian system. Even the displays, buttons and knobs are to be in Cyrillic.

You seem knowledgeable. As you no doubt aware, effectiveness of military equipments is not based on paper performance, but on how good said equipments integrate with the rest of the military. As it stands, the Su-35 cannot communicate with Chinese AWACS, cannot fire Chinese munitions, with parts that cannot be interchanged with J-11B, and require the pilots to learn Russian to be flown. The Su-35 would bring logistical burden while offer no value to Chinese air force. That's why the concept of such deal is total nonsense.

Ever since J-20's first flight, the Russian fan boys have been really trying hard to make Su-35's sale seem as if inevitable. That's because J-20 represents a leap in Chinese aviation: from an imitator of Russian aircraft to an independent innovator who has surpassed the Russian. The only things that could keep the dream of "Russian is an aerospace leader" afloat is the fan boys' hope that J-20 will use Russian systems.

 

[Engineer]

Some experts believe the J-20 is only stealthy from the front.

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Nope. The J-20 is no F-22, and nowhere does it fall shorter than with its most critical trait: dodging detection. “At best, it’s probably stealthy only from the front,” says aviation analyst Richard Aboulafia...

One can stop reading right there. The guy is unaware of American stealth fighter concepts such as ATF, JAST and the tech-demonstrator X-36. If it is elementary knowledge that canard and stealth are mutually exclusive, the leader of stealth aircraft would not have employed canard at all.

 

[Blitzo]

Some experts believe the J-20 is only stealthy from the front.

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Please stop insulting our intelligence by posting these failures of critical thinking and logic and relaying them as if they deserve any serious consideration.

These kind of things might fly on other forums not dedicated to following the Chinese military, but on here, where we all know better.



You've been posting so many BS articles about J-20 over the last few days that it has become tiring to ask you to please stop giving terrible articles credit they don't deserve.

 

[Richard Santos]

Had the Russians said they are willing to offer Su-35 with Chinese systems, the deal might be possible. However, as the Russian media reported, the Su-35 would only be sold with entirely Russian system. Even the displays, buttons and knobs are to be in Cyrillic.

You seem knowledgeable. As you no doubt aware, effectiveness of military equipments is not based on paper performance, but on how good said equipments integrate with the rest of the military. As it stands, the Su-35 cannot communicate with Chinese AWACS, cannot fire Chinese munitions, with parts that cannot be interchanged with J-11B, and require the pilots to learn Russian to be flown. The Su-35 would bring logistical burden while offer no value to Chinese air force. That's why the concept of such deal is total nonsense.

Ever since J-20's first flight, the Russian fan boys have been really trying hard to make Su-35's sale seem as if inevitable. That's because J-20 represents a leap in Chinese aviation: from an imitator of Russian aircraft to an independent innovator who has surpassed the Russian. The only things that could keep the dream of "Russian is an aerospace leader" afloat is the fan boys' hope that J-20 will use Russian systems.

Actually, we don't know the degree of interoperability between Russian and Chinese equipment. We also don't really know the degree to which any Su-35 which might be sold had been reconfigured or modified to achieve interoperability. I don't believe any deal can be consummated where the equipment makes no provision for interoperability.

 

[manqiangrexue]

Please stop insulting our intelligence by posting these failures of critical thinking and logic and relaying them as if they deserve any serious consideration.

These kind of things might fly on other forums not dedicated to following the Chinese military, but on here, where we all know better.



You've been posting so many BS articles about J-20 over the last few days that it has become tiring to ask you to please stop giving terrible articles credit they don't deserve.

He can't; he has an innate urge to discredit China's military but possesses neither the evidence nor the knowledge to do it, so the last resort is to credit anyone who writes anti-Chinese military articles as an "expert" and to recommend that we just listen to the "experts." Doesn't matter if the writer's been wrong many times before, cannot provide any evidence or produces articles riddled with factual inaccuracies (China plans to produce more J-31 than America produces F-35???); if he's good enough to get a J-20-probably-fights-like-an-F-86 article published, then he's an expert.

 

[Richard Santos]

you have no idea what is post stall, fighters like F-22 are made in low numbers, F-35 lacks the performance of F-22, the jet is fat slow, has a tiny wing and is acknowledged to be at the most a peer of F-16 and in that even struggles, .


First a Fighter has volume limitation, it can not carry lots of weapons internally, the few AAMs it carries plus missiles fail too, there are also electronic ways of jamming your missiles. so once your jet has down 2-3 enemy fighters has lost all its missiles, but since the F-22 is built in small numbers with a real huge budget, the F-22 will need to go WVR combat, add SAM like S-400 and the legacy 4g fighters are going to be downed leaving only 5G to fight,

Since you know perfectly F-22 is heavy, has a fatter cross section than a trimmer Eurofighter, it will need to face close combat at WVR, that type of combat, means you will lose speed, then poststall comes in to play, once S-400 were deployed no F-15 or F-16 will enter Syrian airspace dominated by Russia.

But you are a bit confused, Russia knows the most important aspect is not stealth, since stealth is just radar signature reduction and is not 100% invisibility, for that you need supercruise.

The MiG-25 in 1991 in the gulf war was the best Iraqi fighter, why? speed, was the clue, the F-15 fired their AIM-120s and many times missed. AAMs do not fly for hours, they fly very few minutes at best, BVR missiles can be dodged, PAKFA has Variable geometry intake, which means besides supercruise can go beyond Mach 2 if needed this means your legacy F-15 or F-16 are at total disadvantage, even Su-35 supercruises.So do not try to lecture me, the best fighters will have TVC nozzles and supercruise, post stall has shown on a 1:1 fight to give an edge but supercruise means forcing the enemy fighter to deplete its load of crappy AAMs

Yes, indeed. Send your few highest value assets to do battle where their distinguishing capabilities are at the greatest discount, and the chances of their loss are at a maximum. Particularly if you actually have a large number of older, cheaper assets, still fully capable of matching enemy knife fighters, sitting around doing nothing.

You should really take over the role of the chief of staff of your country's Air Force. It would be so very good for everyone else.

 

[Blitzo]

He can't; he has an innate urge to discredit China's military but possesses neither the evidence nor the knowledge to do it, so the last resort is to credit anyone who writes anti-Chinese military articles as an "expert" and to recommend that we just listen to the "experts." Doesn't matter if the writer's been wrong many times before, cannot provide any evidence or produces articles riddled with factual inaccuracies (China plans to produce more J-31 than America produces F-35???); if he's good enough to get a J-20-probably-fights-like-an-F-86 article published, then he's an expert.

To be honest I'm not even sure what Blackstone is trying to prove by posting these articles.

He should have been here long enough to know the content in most of these articles are complete rubbish, not to mention the logic (or therelackof) which they demonstrate is rubbish as well.


Maybe he really does feel like all articles deserve an equal hearing or something and he doesn't actually believe in the content of the articles.

But given the way he's been posting them I feel like he probably partially believes or fully believes in what they're saying, which is absolutely mind boggling to me because he's been on SDF so long that he should've been able to take up the information and logic from the Chinese military watching community simply by osmosis and be able to identify certain write ups or claims as BS immediately.
So it's really difficult for me to criticize those articles without also directly attacking Blackstone, because I honestly have no idea what his position on them are, so posting those articles just comes across as "loaded" posts where I'm not really sure if I should be criticizing the content of the articles themselves or if I should be criticizing Blackstone for believing in their content.

 

[manqiangrexue]

To be honest I'm not even sure what Blackstone is trying to prove by posting these articles.

He should have been here long enough to know the content in most of these articles are complete rubbish, not to mention the logic (or therelackof) which they demonstrate is rubbish as well.


Maybe he really does feel like all articles deserve an equal hearing or something and he doesn't actually believe in the content of the articles.

But given the way he's been posting them I feel like he probably partially believes or fully believes in what they're saying, which is absolutely mind boggling to me because he's been on SDF so long that he should've been able to take up the information and logic from the Chinese military watching community simply by osmosis and be able to identify certain write ups or claims as BS immediately.
So it's really difficult for me to criticize those articles without also directly attacking Blackstone, because I honestly have no idea what his position on them are, so posting those articles just comes across as "loaded" posts where I'm not really sure if I should be criticizing the content of the articles themselves or if I should be criticizing Blackstone for believing in their content.

It's pretty simple. He believes them because he wants to believe them; that's why he never requires any of them to provide evidence for him to analyze. He's not here to learn, otherwise he couldn't have been so long on the engine thread but still not know what engines J-10A uses (I don't know if he's better now but several months ago, he was there). He's not here to learn or to be objective; he's here to find things that he wants to hear.

 

[dingyibvs]

5 stages of grief, guys, 5 stages of grief. Denial always comes first, some move on from it faster and eventually make peace with themselves, some just never do. Starting probably the early 2000's, we've seen a lot of people moving on to the anger stage. "They're all thieves!" "It's all because of those treacherous MNCs!" "Damn those short-sighted politicians!" Just in the last few years, we're starting to see some moving to the bargaining stage. "What if we raise high tariffs?" "What if we try to raise hell in the ECS/SCS?" "What if we design a trade bloc to isolate them?"

The ones in the bargaining stage are most advanced right now, and they generally constitute the most knowledgeable and powerful ones around the world, but of the general populations, I'd say most are still in the denial stage.