J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

[Equation]

@Bltizo- the article quoted Andrew Erickson, a respected professor at the US Naval War College, so it's a good reference on Chinese military, including the J-20. Also, SDF isn't a mutual admiration society for PRC fanbois, so articles from mainstream sources that don't cheerlead the J-20 are quite acceptable.

Nor is SDF a place for anti-PRC fan girls to post any "mainstream sources" that adhere to their beliefs.

 

[b787]

Yea I got tires of pointing out all the hilarities in his post. I think he even said something like supercruise gice


Supercruise gives you 100% invisibility

did you get your 5 minutes of fame?

What i meant and you try to pervert was this:

You have two fighters, two stealth fighters, fighter A supercruises, fighter B it does not supercruise,

Stealth is no invisibility, but reduced signature, suppose you have better radar on fighter B, since missiles have ranges, you have to fire them preferably on a head on trajectory, it means fighter A is closing fighter B head on.

Fighter A flies at 2000 km/h, fighter B at 900km/h, when fighter A fires its missiles, it fires them at higher speeds.
The missiles have more chances to hit a slow moving target, so the supercruising jet will dodge the missiles fire at it as the MiG-25s did when the F-15 fire at them AIM-7s, but a slow moving target has to get closer to get its missiles nearer the intended target.

So the slower stealth fighter actually needs to get closer so it means it will be detected easier, the faster fighter can get closer and it can escape quicly without actually exposing itself as much as the slow moving fighter.


So i will put it, simple do i believe the Chinese General when he said J-20 has the same BVR capability of F-22? no way, F-22 supercruises at 2000 km/h, so it has stealth in supercruise capability, why? by flying faster it will expose it self less than J-20, it will exit the missiles no escape zone faster and since it has TVC nozzles its rear stabs will be used less, having no ventral fins, has a cleaner bottom, having flat nozzles a lower IR signature, and at supercruise its IR signature is smaller than a J-20 trying to escape or chase the F-22 at full afterburner, so you like it or not, western analysis are correct, F-22 remains king.
So i do not believe the Chinese propaganda it will be equal to the F-22 at BVR

 

[Iron Man]

did you get your 5 minutes of fame?

What i meant and you try to pervert was this:

You have two fighters, two stealth fighters, fighter A supercruises, fighter B it does not supercruise,

Stealth is no invisibility, but reduced signature, suppose you have better radar on fighter B, since missiles have ranges, you have to fire them preferably on a head on trajectory, it means fighter A is closing fighter B head on.

Fighter A flies at 2000 km/h, fighter B at 900km/h, when fighter A fires its missiles, it fires them at higher speeds.
The missiles have more chances to hit a slow moving target, so the supercruising jet will dodge the missiles fire at it as the MiG-25s did when the F-15 fire at them AIM-7s, but a slow moving target has to get closer to get its missiles nearer the intended target.

So the slower stealth fighter actually needs to get closer so it means it will be detected easier, the faster fighter can get closer and it can escape quicly without actually exposing itself as much as the slow moving fighter.

This just sounds like a whole bunch of backpedaling from your earlier nonsensical claim of "100% invisibility". When did "without actually exposing itself as much" become "100% invisibility"? If your two hypothetical fighters are equal except for supercruising ability, then supercruise most certainly does NOT give you 100% invisibility because they will still detect each other at the same time and shoot at the same time. The supercruising fighter's missiles will arrive first and with a higher Pk but this certainly does not mean it is 100% invisible. I think you should retract this claim which outside of outright hyperbole is just about as ridiculous a statement as you can make.

Now let's sit back and watch you add more qualifications to your stealth + supercruise = 100% invisibility 'equation'.

 

[b787]

This just sounds like a whole bunch of backpedaling from your earlier nonsensical claim of "100% invisibility". When did "without actually exposing itself as much" become "100% invisibility"? If your two hypothetical fighters are equal except for supercruising ability, then supercruise most certainly does NOT give you 100% invisibility because they will still detect each other at the same time and shoot at the same time. The supercruising fighter's missiles will arrive first but this certainly does not mean it is 100% invisible. I think you should retract this claim which outside of outright hyperbole is just about as ridiculous a statement as you can make.

Now let's sit back and watch you add more qualifications to your stealth + supercruise = 100% invisibility 'equation'.

more pervertion of my words, supercruise means when you are flying if the enemy flies at 900km/h the supercruising fighter at 2000km will be farther from the missile is chasing it, it means the missiles has burn more fuel, it means it can not maneuver better and longer time, so are just simply digging your head in the sand, avoiding the reality, supercruise also means you are in the radar of you enemy less time, so yes it will give you less time to be tracked and less time to be painted and lock on, add you have TVC nozzles and your stabs move less, add if you have flat nozzles, smaller IR, a missile that is chasing you from a farther distance does not get you in the no escape zone faster, it few word continue using you your math, if you walk at me and i am running and you throw at me a stone, the chances you hit me are lower, first because i will be farther from you, and your stone will lose speed, so i can turn and avoid your stone.

Also jet have jammers, you can jam the missile radar in fact AIM-54 was many times fooled by MiG-25s just by changing direction, fast missiles longer they fly, lesser the chances they will succeed

 

[Quickie]

.... you have TVC nozzles and your stabs move less, add if you have flat nozzles, smaller IR, a missile...

You're making up things again. Flat nozzles do not necessarily contribute to a smaller IR signature than round nozzles since that would depend on the exhaust cross sectional area where the exhaust exit through, which in turn would determine the strength of the IR signature, irrespective of whether the nozzle is square or round.

 

[Iron Man]

more pervertion of my words, supercruise means when you are flying if the enemy flies at 900km/h the supercruising fighter at 2000km will be farther from the missile is chasing it, it means the missiles has burn more fuel, it means it can not maneuver better and longer time, so are just simply digging your head in the sand, avoiding the reality, supercruise also means you are in the radar of you enemy less time, so yes it will give you less time to be tracked and less time to be painted and lock on, add you have TVC nozzles and your stabs move less, add if you have flat nozzles, smaller IR, a missile that is chasing you from a farther distance does not get you in the no escape zone faster, it few word continue using you your math, if you walk at me and i am running and you throw at me a stone, the chances you hit me are lower, first because i will be farther from you, and your stone will lose speed, so i can turn and avoid your stone.

Also jet have jammers, you can jam the missile radar in fact AIM-54 was many times fooled by MiG-25s just by changing direction, fast missiles longer they fly, lesser the chances they will succeed

Clearly you do not even understand your own scenario which you have obviously and completely muddled in your own head. Or since English is not your first language you mean something other than what you obviously said.

Two fighters flying at each other, one of whom is not supersonic and the other is supersonic, with all other things being equal. That is the scenario. Unless you wish to move the goalposts. Oh wait, it looks like you already have. TVC nozzles, jammers, lower IR signature, what else do you want to change? Let's see, maybe the non-supersonic pilot is developmentally delayed, does not have 20/20 vision, and his engine just got struck by a bird. And his missiles are malfunctioning. LOLOLOLOL

 

[b787]

You're making up things again. Flat nozzles do not necessarily contribute to a smaller IR signature than round nozzles since that would depend on the exhaust cross sectional area where the exhaust exit through, which in turn would determine the strength of the IR signature, irrespective of whether the nozzle is square or round.

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i let you argue with the article

 

[Quickie]

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i let you argue with the article

No, I won't. You will have to show the part which I presume you will conveniently misinterpret.

 

[b787]

Clearly you do not even understand your own scenario which you have obviously and completely muddled in your own head. Or since English is not your first language you mean something other than what you obviously said.

Two fighters flying at each other, one of whom is not supersonic and the other is supersonic, with all other things being equal. That is the scenario. Unless you wish to move the goalposts. Oh wait, it looks like you already have. TVC nozzles, jammers, lower IR signature, what else do you want to change? Let's see, maybe the non-supersonic pilot is developmentally delayed, does not have 20/20 vision, and his engine just got struck by a bird. And his missiles are malfunctioning. LOLOLOLOL

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argue with the article, i do not need to argue with you

 

[b787]

No, I won't. You will have to show the part which I presume you will conveniently misinterpret.

i do not need, the articles says it argue with the article, i will not do it with you