J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
However, from the speed of development and the high profile unveiling at Zhuhai, it looks like the PLAAF is mightily pleased with the performance of the J20 as is, even in its current interim form.

Yup the commander of PLAAF seem to be satisfied with the performance of J 20 and he is thinking of speeding up the production and induction of J 20 Here it is on the sideline of Zhuhai airshow

On Tuesday, China unveiled two Chengdu J-20 stealth fighters at the Airshow China-2016 in Zhuhai. The aircraft was developed by Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation. The J-20 conducted its first test flight in early 2011.

"We are not considering putting [the J-20] on the global market," Ma was quoted as saying by South China Morning Post. At the same time, the commander said it was satisfied by the demonstration flight at the Zhuhai airshow. China unveils its J-20 stealth fighter during an air show in Zhuhai, Guangdong Province, China,

"Of course I’m satisfied. It’s a very good thing that our J-20 made an appearance here. We’re speeding up its development," he added. While the detailed specifications of the new jet have been kept secret, to all appearances the jets have been designed to match the stealth

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Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
Now to keep increasing production until 36 per year (by 2021 or so) and keep it up until next gen heavy fighter (drone) arrives.
 

Quickie

Colonel
Actually, supermaneuverability in the context of 5th generation fighters has nothing to do with post stall maneuversbility. Fighters lose vast amount of energy when they enter post stall regime. A fighter maneuvering in the post stall regime has utterly Lost the energy maneuver context a is therefore most likely a dead man walking.
5 th generation fighters are characterized by generally superior Energy maneuver characteristics. That means they can achieve and maintain superior energy states Compared to 4th g fighters. This is the reason for supercruise. G5 f22 can not only supercruise, but do so at a much higher altitude than G4 fighter can typically easily operate at. Hence avast superiority in total energy given by a great ssuperiority in both Kenetic and potential energies. The advantages conferred by entering the battle with a superior energy state and being able to maintain The superiority through the battle is typically vastly greater than pitch rate, roll rate, or even the nominal range of missile armament.
Supermaneuverbility actually refer to G5 fighter being able to maneuver effectively while outside the attainable energy state envelope of most G4 fighters.

What you described is basically what a fighter jet designer would aim for in current state of the art fighter aircraft design whether it's 4.5th, 5th or 6th Gen.

A lot have been said about how amazing a Fifth Gen (a.k.a F-22) is, in all department but questions arises in an exercise a few years ago between the latter and Typhoon specifically in WVR where the outcome would again depend much on the kinematic performance of the aircraft.

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Richard Santos

Captain
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What you described is basically what a fighter jet designer would aim for in current state of the art fighter aircraft design whether it's 4.5th, 5th or 6th Gen.

Yes, and supermaneuverbility is just a buzz word for improvements that are fundamentally incremental in nature. Furthermore not all fighters touted as 5th Generation comes close to actually being able to show any incremental improvement over 4th or 4.5th Generation in this area. F-35 comes to mind.

lot have been said about how amazing a Fifth Gen (a.k.a F-22) is, in all department but questions arises in an exercise a few years ago between the latter and Typhoon specifically in WVR where the outcome would again depend much on the kinematic performance of the aircraft.

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actually, much of F-22's superiority in BVR also comes from its superior kinematic performance. Here EF-2000 would be at a vast disadvantage.

But WVR, it should be no surprise that F22 won't necessarily show great improvement over latest G4.5 fighter. F22 needs to carry a big fat fuselage that can hold its entire A2A armament internally. Is it any surprise a slightly earlier fighter that didn't need to do so, and therefore is lighter and trimmer, and is flying in close to clean configuration, ought to be able to match is agility and maneuverability in a knife fight in certain speed regimes? If f22 is deployed in such a way that it frequently has to engage in knife fights against far cheaper and less strategically influential G4 and G4.5 fighters, the entire USAF staff needs to be fired.

In this sense, f22 may actually be a somewhat unsatisfactory compromise because the weighty TVC only benefits it in a combat regime that it, if well deployed, should avoid.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Some experts believe the J-20 is only stealthy from the front.

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China’s Chengdu J-20 fighter jet, which made its public debut at China’s Zhuhai Airshow last week, cuts an imposing, even frightening, figure.

The supersonic, twin-engine fighter and attack aircraft packs advanced radar and sensor capabilities, with a 360-degree helmet display system that allows the pilot to through the aircraft itself. It boasts the same kind of stealth technologies the US Air Force has been honing for decades. And it’s bigger than the F-22 Raptor it rivals, so it can carry more fuel and more weapons, extending its lethality deep into enemy territory.

The jet’s debut generated ripples of panic across the globe in the wake of its boisterous exhaust. Can this plane best the best of Western stealth tech, the F-22 Raptor and F-35 Joint Strike Fighters?

Nope. The J-20 is no F-22, and nowhere does it fall shorter than with its most critical trait: dodging detection. “At best, it’s probably stealthy only from the front,” says aviation analyst Richard Aboulafia, of the Teal Group. “Whereas all-aspect stealth like that in the F-22 and F-35 minimizes the radar signature from all directions.”
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True stealth relies on the shape of the aircraft, its exhaust, material composition, cockpit shielding, and even flight characteristics. Aboulafia doubts the J-20’s designers have the science down. Just note that screaming exhaust: “It sounds great, but you really don’t want that in a stealth fighter,” he says.

The US alleges a Chinese national hacked into its defense contractor computers to steal plans for the F-22 and the F-35—it sentenced Su Bin to three years in jail for the crime in March—but that data alone wouldn’t be enough to pull off a truly stealthy design. Those blueprints don’t reveal everything, Aboulafia says. “It’s also how it’s built, from the construction processes to all the little details in terms of design tolerances and things like disruptions in surface smoothness from hatches and panels.”

The J-20 technically counts as a fifth-generation fighter—it’s got the same sort of tech and capability of its contemporaries—but it lacks the breadth of know-how and technological innovation you see in American jets.

America's F-22 Raptor can easily handle China's new J-20 fighter jet, analysts say.

Take the J-20 front canards, the elevator-like surfaces ahead of the wing. They’re no good for stealth flight, and they’re likely there to counteract an inherent instability in the design. The J-20 lacks the maneuverability and electronics, communications, and sensing capabilities of its US counterparts. “In head-to-head combat, the J-20 would lose in seconds,” Aboulafia says.

Yet, it may not matter if the J-20 plays the Fiero to America’s Ferrari. It’s not supposed to take on the F-22. The jet’s real threat is its ability to use what little stealth it does have to penetrate a conflict zone and attack aircraft supporting front-line combatants, like refueling tankers and AWACS surveillance airplanes, and other big targets.

And the jet will ensure dominance in the region once it enters service, around 2018. “China will then have a solid technological edge in air-to-air combat over all its Asian neighbors, including Japan, Indonesia, Vietnam, and others,” says military analyst Peter Singer. That will of course extend to its allies who purchase the jets, Singer says, including countries in Africa, southeast Asia, the Middle East, and South America.

Plus, China will likely build a ton of the J-20 and J-31 (itself a knockoff of the F-35), and could exceed US production of the F-22 and F-35 within a few years. “The airplanes don’t have to be as good if they’re wielded in greater numbers, or in certain scenarios that can create major complications for the U.S. and its allies,” Singer says. In a way, China gets a second-mover advantage. “They don’t have to innovate; they simply have to catch up.”

At this point, analysts don’t know as much as they’d like about the J-20, but its airshow debut certainly whetted appetites for more intel to see just how much more catching up the Chinese still have to do.
 

Richard Santos

Captain
Registered Member
The canard argument is bunk. Several contender for the very ATF contest F-22 won had canard configuration, including a further evolution of the Northrop design that was already judged superior to the f-22 in stealth.

But poorer rear aspect stealth is credible.

It should be pointed out f-22 was originally intended to operate over Central and eastern Europe, above an extremely dense soviet ground air defense network. So all aspect stealth was key to survival. It is not clear rear aspect stealth really is that important for a contest over east or South China Sea.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
I wouldn't even bother to post an article quoting Aboulafia . He has been bad mouthing J20 since day 1. For him anything that is not designed by US or Russia is bad . I am not even sure what is his qualification.He is the Gordon Chang of aerospace NO credibility, Zip except for Western media that like like to show off their condescending attitude
Look here is his comment way back in 2011 . We now know he is wrong on all account China did have AESA radar on J 20 and the avionic seem to be top notch.

What count is is General Ma assessment . He is the commander of PLAAF and he certainly know what F22 is capable of and consequently put forward design requirement for J 20 to counter that .Now that J 20 pass the testing phase an entering into official induction in the AF, seem he happy with their performance

Here what he said way back in 2011
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I would gauge a modern combat aircraft’s capabilities by looking at the following features:

1. Access to offboard space, ground, and air-based sensors, particularly a capable AEW/AWACS system with a well-trained crew and robust data links.

2. Effective sensor fusion to allow the pilot to make use of all this information, as well as information from onboard sensors.

3. An integrated EW system.

4. An AESA radar with a high level of reliability.

5. Training and doctrine necessary to make effective use of all this data and equipment. Plenty of flight hours for pilot flight training, too.

6. Powerful engines (ideally capable of supercruise), with a high mean time between overhaul and failures.

7. An airframe with low-observable characteristics.

8. A robust air-to-air refueling capability (equipment, readiness, training).

9. Sophisticated and reliable precision guided weaponry.

10. A robust software and hardware upgrade roadmap, to keep this plane effective in 5, 10, and 30 years.

11. Maintenance procedures in place to keep the plane operating with a high mission-capable rate. And of course equipment that has been designed with easy access for maintenance and easy access for electronic diagnostic tools, and ideally a sophisticated health-usage monitoring system (HUMS).

This list is not in any particular order of magnitude. And I’m sure I’ve missed quite a few other key items.

The J-20 offers one item from this list (#7). I’m not convinced that the PLAAF has any other items from this list, although China seems to be making some progress with #9.
 
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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
All this hate on the J-20 only proves it has them worried regardless. The advantage they even believe does not have them invincible. Why would they care if they can beat the J-20? I remember reading some article talking about the modern soldier where it said warriors love facing adversity. We've seen nothing of it. They're worried about some little pride in the enemy? Believing yourself superior is less than half the battle. It's the rest that has them worried.
 

Richard Santos

Captain
Registered Member
Richard Santos, supermaneuverability means poststall, but with the advent of advanced avionics the need of it and highly offbored missiles its importance has diminished, specially in engagements of several fighters where a mistake in the use of a highly high AoA maneuvre such as 120 degree or more can lead to a defeat by loss of energy and speed, but on a 1:1 basis the use of poststall will give the victory to the fighter with such capacity, F-22 for that reason retained the regular AIM-9L and has no HMS, but F-35 uses AIM-9X which is highly offbored and can fire backwards without the F-35 needing to maneuvre, so F-35 can fire its missiles not 45 or 120 degrees but 360 degrees at any direction


You can call whatever you like supermaneuverbility. Buzz words and salesmanship don't win air combats. The ability to enter the battle with superior energy state, and keep that superiority through the battle, will likely decide far more air battles in a far wider range of circumstances than post stall maneuverability.

In most cases, the fighter that resorts to post stall maneuver has already decisively lost the previous round and is merely struggling to postpone death.
 
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