J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

[latenlazy]

you are simply denying facts, longer fuselage means more volume, the J-20 is not lighter than the F-22

Fact, an anaconda is longer than an elephant. I am using an absurd example here, but you are making an absurd claim that length is the only determinant for volume and weight.

I did not say the J-20 is lighter than the F-22. I said we simply can't know because there are too many indeterminable factors. If you know for a fact the J-20 is in fact lighter than the F-22, provide proof. Give us the weights of the two different airplanes. If you actually know how much the J-20 weighs that would be welcomed information for all of us. If you can't, you're only espousing imaginary conjecture.

 

[b787]

Fact, an anaconda is longer than an elephant. I am using an absurd example here, but you are making an absurd claim that length is the only determinant for volume and weight.

I did not say the J-20 is lighter than the F-22. I said we simply can't know because there are too many indeterminable factors. If you know for a fact the J-20 is in fact lighter than the F-22, provide proof. Give us the weights of the two different airplanes. If you actually know how much the J-20 weighs that would be welcomed information for all of us. If you can't, you're only espousing imaginary conjecture.

only a fan answers like you.

J-20 from the front, is as wide as the F-22, and the fuselage engine nacelles longer, okay you think it is lighter, look at the forebody, the J-20 has two large bulges on the DSI bumps, this adds volume internal volume.

Do you think the Chinese have achieve breaksthroughs in material science and its fuselage its much much lighter, be my guest, the J-20 being considerably lighter considering if it might have better technology, is not lighter than the F-22 at empty weight, if the J-20 is lucky will weigh 19 tonnes at the lightest at empty weight, but remember it is not a balloon, it carries fuel, any engineer will tell you aircraft minimize volume, it means all the internal volume has a use, avionics, fuel weapons etc etc......longer fuselage means at least more weapons more fuel....i know you think it is lighter, smalller, canards do not affect stealth, ventral fins do not add reflecting area, there is a proof your J-20 is not better than F-22, the flight display, F-22 is flown at very high AoA in airshows, TVC nozzles do their tricks.When you see the F-22 flying inside the envelop of the S-400s, (and the Americans have a history of violating airspaces ask Gary powers) you can tell me stealth works, S-400 virtually have sealed the air space Russia demands, if you see F-22 violating that air space means S-400 are crap, but if you do not, let me tell you the best air superiority fighter the USA has some flaws and in reality stealth is not wonderwoman`s aircraft, it means only harder to detect, but still detectable but J-20 uses Al-31, it can not supercruise.

 

[latenlazy]

only a fan answers like you.

J-20 from the front, is as wide as the F-22, and the fuselage engine nacelles longer, okay you think it is lighter, look at the forebody, the J-20 has two large bulges on the DSI bumps, this adds volume internal volume.

Do you think the Chinese have achieve breaksthroughs in material science and its fuselage its much much lighter, be my guest, the J-20 being considerably lighter considering if it might have better technology, is not lighter than the F-22 at empty weight, if the J-20 is lucky will weigh 19 tonnes at the lightest at empty weight, but remember it is not a balloon, it carries fuel, any engineer will tell you aircraft minimize volume, it means all the internal volume has a use, avionics, fuel weapons etc etc......longer fuselage means at least more weapons more fuel....i know you think it is lighter, smalller, canards do not affect stealth, ventral fins do not add reflecting area, there is a proof your J-20 is not better than F-22, the flight display, F-22 is flown at very high AoA in airshows, TVC nozzles do their tricks.When you see the F-22 flying inside the envelop of the S-400s, (and the Americans have a history of violating airspaces ask Gary powers) you can tell me stealth works, S-400 virtually have sealed the air space Russia demands, if you see F-22 violating that air space means S-400 are crap, but if you do not, let me tell you the best air superiority fighter the USA has some flaws and in reality stealth is not wonderwoman`s aircraft, it means only harder to detect, but still detectable but J-20 uses Al-31, it can not supercruise.

Do you have actual measurements? Or are you just eyeballing?

You don't know how the dimensions of the two planes actually compare unless you can either find an objective reference (which is why we have measurement systems) or unless the two planes are sitting side by side. Please provide actual measurements or a reference object both planes share, not your subjective eyeballing.

 

[Richard Santos]

On the contrary, it's exactly just that notion. The TVC are less advantages and may be more of a hassle for canard delta-wing aircraft. It's not coincidental all the contemporary canard delta-wing fighter jets, including the latest edition of the Typhoon have not been incorporated with TVC.

[/QUO

For benefits of other members, it is time again to pick apart more nonsense!


This is a fallacy known as

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. Note how this person completely made up arguments, then proceed to argue against his own arguments.


This is blatantly false. The main capability offered by thrust-vectoring is not having to rely on aerodynamics. In fact, the whole point is to offer control without changing aerodynamics.


Super manoeuvrability is more correctly known as post-stall manoeuvrability, which refers to the ability to control the aircraft that has stalled. There is no requirement that the aircraft has fly stunts that the Russians do. This guy is once again changing terminology.

We do know that J-20 has post-stall manoeuvrability, since it is stated as one of the design requirements. This is achieved by canard, which retains its ability to control pitch even when the rest of the aircraft has exceeded the maximum AoA.


To those who do not know and to those are new, this guy would argue that everything found on PAKFA is "good" and everything else on F-22 and J-20 as "bad". Since PAKFA is not a true stealth fighter, one argument involves claiming that "stealth is useless", which is what his rant above is all about. It is just a manifestation of not-made-here syndrome.

Actually, supermaneuverability in the context of 5th generation fighters has nothing to do with post stall maneuversbility. Fighters lose vast amount of energy when they enter post stall regime. A fighter maneuvering in the post stall regime has utterly Lost the energy maneuver context a is therefore most likely a dead man walking.
5 th generation fighters are characterized by generally superior Energy maneuver characteristics. That means they can achieve and maintain superior energy states Compared to 4th g fighters. This is the reason for supercruise. G5 f22 can not only supercruise, but do so at a much higher altitude than G4 fighter can typically easily operate at. Hence avast superiority in total energy given by a great ssuperiority in both Kenetic and potential energies. The advantages conferred by entering the battle with a superior energy state and being able to maintain The superiority through the battle is typically vastly greater than pitch rate, roll rate, or even the nominal range of missile armament.

Supermaneuverbility actually refer to G5 fighter being able to maneuver effectively while outside the attainable energy state envelope of most G4 fighters.

 

[b787]

Do you have actual measurements? Or are you just eyeballing?

You don't know how the dimensions of the two planes actually compare unless you can either find an objective reference (which is why we have measurement systems) or unless the two planes are sitting side by side. Please provide actual measurements or a reference object both planes share, not your subjective eyeballing.

the day you show me the J-20 flying high AoA and post stall at airshows you will prove your points, and when you see Su-35s delivered to China you will understand why 117S is vital for J-20, now you will try to say we do not know thing we have no measures but is lighter and more agile but we do not how much it weighs but is lighter, we do not the TWR but is has better TWR than F-22, we do not lift coefficients, but it does post stall yeah all of that with Al-31 what a joke but you are a hard core fan so here i cut it, we do not know how much it weighs but it is lighter

 

[b787]

Richard Santos, supermaneuverability means poststall, but with the advent of advanced avionics the need of it and highly offbored missiles its importance has diminished, specially in engagements of several fighters where a mistake in the use of a highly high AoA maneuvre such as 120 degree or more can lead to a defeat by loss of energy and speed, but on a 1:1 basis the use of poststall will give the victory to the fighter with such capacity, F-22 for that reason retained the regular AIM-9L and has no HMS, but F-35 uses AIM-9X which is highly offbored and can fire backwards without the F-35 needing to maneuvre, so F-35 can fire its missiles not 45 or 120 degrees but 360 degrees at any direction

 

[manqiangrexue]

the day you show me the J-20 flying high AoA and post stall at airshows you will prove your points, and when you see Su-35s delivered to China you will understand why 117S is vital for J-20, now you will try to say we do not know thing we have no measures but is lighter and more agile but we do not how much it weighs but is lighter, we do not the TWR but is has better TWR than F-22, we do not lift coefficients, but it does post stall yeah all of that with Al-31 what a joke but you are a hard core fan so here i cut it, we do not know how much it weighs but it is lighter

Is this your "English" or are you accessing this forum by google translate? Are you aware that you need to separate your "sentences" with periods? You are just here mucking things up wasting people's time with terrible logic and terrible English. Everyone here is so helpful trying to teach you and all you do is say things that don't make sense on broken logic with bad English. You're wrong so many times in so many places that people don't know where to start when replying to you and yet they still do. Aren't you ashamed of yourself? Or do you think EVERYONE is wrong and you're right?

 

[Richard Santos]

Regarding j20's ability to supermaneuver, we actually don't know in its current state how well it can do so, or whether it could do so at all. But it is a reasonable deduction that it's airframe and ws-15 were designed to combine to equal or somewhat surpass the energy envelope of the f-22 as Chinese intelligence services would have deduced it in or around 2005.

 

[Engineer]

Actually, supermaneuverability in the context of 5th generation fighters has nothing to do with post stall maneuversbility. Fighters lose vast amount of energy when they enter post stall regime. A fighter maneuvering in the post stall regime has utterly Lost the energy maneuver context a is therefore most likely a dead man walking.
5 th generation fighters are characterized by generally superior Energy maneuver characteristics. That means they can achieve and maintain superior energy states Compared to 4th g fighters. This is the reason for supercruise. G5 f22 can not only supercruise, but do so at a much higher altitude than G4 fighter can typically easily operate at. Hence avast superiority in total energy given by a great ssuperiority in both Kenetic and potential energies. The advantages conferred by entering the battle with a superior energy state and being able to maintain The superiority through the battle is typically vastly greater than pitch rate, roll rate, or even the nominal range of missile armament.

Supermaneuverbility actually refer to G5 fighter being able to maneuver effectively while outside the attainable energy state envelope of most G4 fighters.

No disagreement from me, lol. I have been saying for years that the post-stall manoeuvres displayed by the Russian during air shows are tactically useless.

Technologies wise, the Russians haven't made much progress for the past 30 years. They still have to rely on variable intakes! With nothing to show in the technology department, they could only go for the wow factor by pulling stunts.

 

[latenlazy]

the day you show me the J-20 flying high AoA and post stall at airshows you will prove your points, and when you see Su-35s delivered to China you will understand why 117S is vital for J-20, now you will try to say we do not know thing we have no measures but is lighter and more agile but we do not how much it weighs but is lighter, we do not the TWR but is has better TWR than F-22, we do not lift coefficients, but it does post stall yeah all of that with Al-31 what a joke but you are a hard core fan so here i cut it, we do not know how much it weighs but it is lighter

Since you seem to be changing the subject while putting words in my mouth (quote me anywhere where I said the J-20 must be lighter or more agile), I'm going to assume that you are implicitly acknowledging that you have no actual evidence to back your claims, and thus your arguments are garbage.