J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

[b787]

Since you seem to be changing the subject while putting words in my mouth (quote me anywhere where I said the J-20 must be lighter or more agile), I'm going to assume that you are implicitly acknowledging that you have no actual evidence to back your claims, and thus your arguments are garbage.

i will summarize you all what you believe.
Canards good for stealth, ventral fins, good for stealth, J-20 small, around 19 meters, optical illusion it is small, lighter, it has 3D manufacturing, wow, american general liar, J-20 is not like F-117, Chinese general is honest J-20 will surpass F-22 with Al-31s, Su-35 never will be delivered, J-20 has no aerodynamic trade offs with Stealth, ventral fins are good for stealth, its latest flight display shows it is the most agile fighter around there, i laugh a lot when i see fan saying it has TVC nozzles, look at the nozzle of J-20, supermaneuverability is not useful F-15 regularly beats F-22, the america pilot says it so, F-35 the best fighter around it got beaten by an F-16B by luck, stealth does not impose any hindrance on aerodynamics look at those nice flat chines, live in wonderland, S-400 has proven the worth of F-22

 

[Richard Santos]

Red herring much?

 

[latenlazy]

i will summarize you all what you believe.
Canards good for stealth, ventral fins, good for stealth, J-20 small, around 19 meters, optical illusion it is small, lighter, it has 3D manufacturing, wow, american general liar, J-20 is not like F-117, Chinese general is honest J-20 will surpass F-22 with Al-31s, Su-35 never will be delivered, J-20 has no aerodynamic trade offs with Stealth, ventral fins are good for stealth, its latest flight display shows it is the most agile fighter around there, i laugh a lot when i see fan saying it has TVC nozzles, look at the nozzle of J-20, supermaneuverability is not useful F-15 regularly beats F-22, the america pilot says it so, F-35 the best fighter around it got beaten by an F-16B by luck, stealth does not impose any hindrance on aerodynamics look at those nice flat chines, live in wonderland, S-400 has proven the worth of F-22

Yeah, keep telling me what you think I believe. In fact, quote me.

 

[Engineer]

Red herring much?

Yep. In fact, he used every single logical fallacy there is. His posts are utter garbage. Worse, they are big distractions and mislead members who genuinely want to learn.

 

[Engineer]

If we negate his statements, we can better understand b787's motivation for posting garbage.

Canards good for stealth, ventral fins, good for stealth,

He wants to believes canards and ventral fins are detrimental to stealth, so as to full-fill his fantasy that J-20 is not stealthy. At the same time, he claimed on multiple occasions that stealth is useless. Thus he has taken on self-contradicting positions.

J-20 small, around 19 meters, optical illusion, it is small, lighter, it has 3D manufacturing,

He wants to believe J-20 is big. Big aircraft means it can't be a fighter, which is why he insists on J-20 being big despite satellite photos already proved otherwise.

wow, american general liar, J-20 is not like F-117, Chinese general is honest J-20 will surpass F-22 with Al-31s, Su-35 never will be delivered,

He wants the Su-35 deal to go through, despite nothing has materialized for some seven years and counting.

J-20 has no aerodynamic trade offs with Stealth, ventral fins are good for stealth, its latest flight display shows it is the most agile fighter around there,

He wants to believe that an aircraft can only either be stealth, or be manoeuvrable. It is just another way of him wanting to believe J-20 can't manoeuvre. Keep in mind that he has claimed stealth to be useless, so by making a big deal about J-20's "non-stealthy" features, he is self contradicting.

i laugh a lot when i see fan saying it has TVC nozzles, look at the nozzle of J-20,

I laughed too. People who believe in thrust-vectoring are not too knowledgeable. We can tell by a certain example on this board.

supermaneuverability is not useful F-15 regularly beats F-22, the america pilot says it so, F-35 the best fighter around it got beaten by an F-16B by luck, stealth does not impose any hindrance on aerodynamics look at those nice flat chines, live in wonderland, S-400 has proven the worth of F-22

He wants to believe post-stall manoeuvre to be useful, because he wants to believe that thrust-vectoring makes an aircraft invincible. This is despite multiple comments from multiple European and US pilots having stated thrust-vectoring isn't as useful as advertised.


So, he forms a conclusion first, then justify it in anyway possible. He has just one core argument for his entire existent on this board, which is that "PAKFA is good, J-20 is bad". Every remark he makes derives from that. Knowing this, it becomes much easier to counter his fallacies.

 

[plawolf]

This is why we can't have nice things.

The J20 made its official public debut, and it only took a few days for all the hate and nonsense to drawn all that out.

If it wasn't so annoying, it would actually be amusing seeing all the spin-doctor wannabes pivot and spin like crazy as all their J20 bashing foundations get systematically demolished.

First they were claiming it was a tech demonstrator only.

Then they insisted it was a stealthy F111 tactical bomber.

Then they were arguing it had 'primitive' aerodynamics and lacked high lift generating features.

Now they are questioning its stealth features.

The only semi-valid criticism the haters could legitimately get away with is claiming it lacks engine power.

However, the insistence that the Su35 deal was just so China could get marginally better engines is purely nonsense and doesn't pass the most basic smell test.

Had China seriously wanted Su35 engines to power the J20, they should have completed the Su35 deal years ago and started using 117s at the prototype stage.

After all, it was always the Russians pushing China to buy the Su35, with China having publically expressed precisely zero interest in the plane.

Very odd that the Chinese would be so uninterested if they really needed those engines as badly as some would insist.

With LRIP birds on the verge of being delivered to the Air Force, it's a bit late in the day to integrate another interim engine.

Based on the actual facts, as well as balance of probabilities and past form, it seems most likely to me that the Su35 deal as a classic Chinese contingency option.

The PLAAF would have been evaluating the performance of the J20 using its current engine options. Had the performance of the plane failed to meet PLAAF requirements, they may well have delayed induction, ordered the Su35 and re-engined the J20 with 117s before going to LRIP.

They did that with the J10 after all.

However, from the speed of development and the high profile unveiling at Zhuhai, it looks like the PLAAF is mightily pleased with the performance of the J20 as is, even in its current interim form.

 

[latenlazy]

This is why we can't have nice things.

The J20 made its official public debut, and it only took a few days for all the hate and nonsense to drawn all that out.

If it wasn't so annoying, it would actually be amusing seeing all the spin-doctor wannabes pivot and spin like crazy as all their J20 bashing foundations get systematically demolished.

First they were claiming it was a tech demonstrator only.

Then they insisted it was a stealthy F111 tactical bomber.

Then they were arguing it had 'primitive' aerodynamics and lacked high lift generating features.

Now they are questioning its stealth features.

The only semi-valid criticism the haters could legitimately get away with is claiming it lacks engine power.

However, the insistence that the Su35 deal was just so China could get marginally better engines is purely nonsense and doesn't pass the most basic smell test.

Had China seriously wanted Su35 engines to power the J20, they should have completed the Su35 deal years ago and started using 117s at the prototype stage.

After all, it was always the Russians pushing China to buy the Su35, with China having publically expressed precisely zero interest in the plane.

Very odd that the Chinese would be so uninterested if they really needed those engines as badly as some would insist.

With LRIP birds on the verge of being delivered to the Air Force, it's a bit late in the day to integrate another interim engine.

Based on the actual facts, as well as balance of probabilities and past form, it seems most likely to me that the Su35 deal as a classic Chinese contingency option.

The PLAAF would have been evaluating the performance of the J20 using its current engine options. Had the performance of the plane failed to meet PLAAF requirements, they may well have delayed induction, ordered the Su35 and re-engined the J20 with 117s before going to LRIP.

They did that with the J10 after all.

However, from the speed of development and the high profile unveiling at Zhuhai, it looks like the PLAAF is mightily pleased with the performance of the J20 as is, even in its current interim form.

I don't think the 117s was ever considered. If that was the engine they wanted for contingency they could have found a way to get it at the start of the program, especially since it seems like they had already decided to go with an interim solution for production.

 

[Richard Santos]

The USAF has discovered that f-15 can collaborate with f-22 in a manner than greatly increase the impact of the f-22 deployed. Furthermore, being not geometrically optimized for stealth, f-15 enjoy certain advantages f-22 can't match, for example, f-15 can be easily modified to house a substantially more powerful and more precise active electronically scanned radar antenna than the f-22 can accommodate in its stealth optimized nose.

This suggests the Chinese too can be thinking in terms economy of force, and wish to possess a conventional G4.5 force that can be used to magnify the impact of j-20. It is possible that given a few years of independent development, the Chinese too can match in a later version of j-11 what the Russians had accomplished in the Su-35. But the Chinese may be anxious to field a force of G4.5 fighters better than j-11b as soon as j-20 reaches initial operational condition, sooner than a major upgrade of j-11, as a back stop against escalation of situation in the South China Sea, or as insurance against consequence Taiwanese action with the transition of power to independence minded DPP.

So while any possible Chinese purchase of Su-35 might be spun as mainly related to technological acquisition, it could just as easily be spun as a mainly force composition move.

 

[Equation]

No disagreement from me, lol. I have been saying for years that the post-stall manoeuvres displayed by the Russian during air shows are tactically useless.

Technologies wise, the Russians haven't made much progress for the past 30 years. They still have to rely on variable intakes! With nothing to show in the technology department, they could only go for the wow factor by pulling stunts.

Yes, but the wow factor and stunt works on Russian crowd and media into believing that their dear leader Putin knows what he's doing, just go along with the suffering from the NATO and US economic sanctions a little bit longer and they will succumb soon.

 

[Jeff Head]

i will summarize you all what you believe.
Canards good for stealth, ventral fins, good for stealth, J-20 small, around 19 meters, optical illusion it is small, lighter, it has 3D manufacturing, wow, american general liar, J-20 is not like F-117, Chinese general is honest J-20 will surpass F-22 with Al-31s, Su-35 never will be delivered, J-20 has no aerodynamic trade offs with Stealth, ventral fins are good for stealth, its latest flight display shows it is the most agile fighter around there, i laugh a lot when i see fan saying it has TVC nozzles, look at the nozzle of J-20, supermaneuverability is not useful F-15 regularly beats F-22, the america pilot says it so, F-35 the best fighter around it got beaten by an F-16B by luck, stealth does not impose any hindrance on aerodynamics look at those nice flat chines, live in wonderland, S-400 has proven the worth of F-22

B787, your comments trying to tell other people what they mean and then laughing about it is demeanining.

More of that will get you a warning.

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