J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
I see the word "Faith". If wiki does not fail me, it says Faith is not based on proof, it is the foundation of religion, not science. P.S. "open" society or not (your faith of believing) has no material relationship with the capability of a jet fighter. So your opinion in this case (all things equal choice) is totally a faith which is almost religious or totally political.

Don't get me wrong, I do respect the personal choice of religious people, but I want to bring your awareness if you are not already aware of your difference with many members here.

Faith is a $100.00 word for "trust", it is not only a Christian term, but is used in general conversation, just as Stoney used it here. I do trust General Goldfein, and agree with his assessment, you are free to believe it or don't?? Obviously lots of you are cynical and are used to your own governments lying to YOU!

I'm not, I'm one of those "deplorable" who find BHO, HRC, and WJC deplorable, pathological liars, and crooks in the good old Chicago sense of "Thugs". I do not trust them, but I trust George W. Bush, even though I often had disagreements with him and his policies, he had and has a genuine love for this country and our people, as well as those of other nations.....
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
That would depend on we expect those individuals of authority to have access to the relevant information on the two aircraft to make any sort of a comparative statement of any substance.

And in this case, I consider the General to almost definitely lack the access to facts as to J-20's capabilities in the same degree that he knows about F-35.
I disagree on your take, because my expectation is high-ranking air force generals would have briefings on the J-20 not available to the public. So, I take their statements, opinions, or even guesses as informed.

Who knows, maybe J-20 is inferior to F-35. But neither we nor him should have the information available to us to be able to tell. His position as Chief of Staff of the US Air Force gives him expertise in many domains of his trade, and especially much expertise for his own Air Force. But it does not mean his judgement of under development aircraft of foreign adversarial air forces should be taken seriously.
That's correct, we don't know for sure what is what, so I'm willing to believe statements or even considered opinions of a 4-star USAF general over pundits and military forum posters.



I wouldn't trust any of these high ranking officers further than I can throw them when it comes to comparative fighter aircraft especially for fighters that haven't even been deployed.
Sounds like a personal bias to me, unless you personally know many 4-stars...?



I'm not guessing based on "confidential sources". I'm not pulling out facts, rather I'm saying that we have an absence of facts and are unable to make a judgement from that.
And yet, you made many personal judgements, yes...?
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I disagree on your take, because my expectation is high-ranking air force generals would have briefings on the J-20 not available to the public. So, I take their statements, opinions, or even guesses as informed.

Oh I am sure they have had many briefings on many things that are not available to the public.

But whether those briefings are accurate or comprehensive is another question. As I've been saying, the entire question is whether they've had access


That's correct, we don't know for sure what is what, so I'm willing to believe statements or even considered opinions of a high-ranking air force officer over pundits and military forum posters.

I disagree, and I believe that the information that he may have access to (while probably more than we have) is still likely far from comprehensive enough to assess the full spectrum of capabilities that a fighter like J-20 has, especially considering it has not even been deployed yet.

But as you've been saying, "you're entitled to your opinion".


Sounds like a personal bias to me, unless you personally know many 4-stars...?

It's more about common sense -- do we believe that the intelligence services of any nation's military would have been able to provide such a sufficiently comprehensive overview of the capabilities of an in-development fighter that has yet to be deployed to a similar standard about what they know of their own nation's premiere next generation fighter?
I significantly doubt it.



And yet, you made many personal judgements, yes...?

I suppose my biggest personal judgement is that neither we nor the US Air Force at this stage probably has enough comprehensive information about J-20 to make a judgement about J-20 or how it compares to other fighters lol.
In other words, my judgement is the equivalent of a null hypothesis, which should be the default assumption of "we don't know".
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
That would depend on we expect those individuals of authority to have access to the relevant information on the two aircraft to make any sort of a comparative statement of any substance.

And in this case, I consider the General to almost definitely lack the access to facts as to J-20's capabilities in the same degree that he knows about F-35.


Who knows, maybe J-20 is inferior to F-35. But neither we nor him should have the information available to us to be able to tell. His position as Chief of Staff of the US Air Force gives him expertise in many domains of his trade, and especially much expertise for his own Air Force. But it does not mean his judgement of under development aircraft of foreign adversarial air forces should be taken seriously.





I wouldn't trust any of these high ranking officers further than I can throw them when it comes to comparative fighter aircraft especially for fighters that haven't even been deployed.





I'm not guessing based on "confidential sources". I'm not pulling out facts, rather I'm saying that we have an absence of facts and are unable to make a judgement from that.

Theres no doubt that you are lacking information, but I can assure you that General Goldfein, who flew the "wobbling goblin" knows what he is talking about, and has every bit of intelligence that has EVER been gathered by any of our allies available to him. We disseminate that information to our allied Air Force partners as well....

Your inference that he has NO realistic performance or equipment data on the J-20 belies a very limited understanding of the military and our certainly more than adequate intelligence services..... I would state with absolute confidence that General Goldfein knows the J-20's performance parameters with a range of + or - 10%..

Satelites have no doubt gathered significant intelligence data on the whereabouts and rather exact speeds etc on the J-20, they likely have very exact knowledge of the wing area, and from that data and the lift profile of the wing are able to determine that if approach speed is say 150knots, and the typical touchdown occurs at 100 to 110 knots, a rather simple mathematical equation, wing configuration and area, x airspeed in knots gives you a rather precise gross weight..

Those Russian engines are a known quantity as well??? so your assertion that because you obviously are more well informed than General Goldfein, that his statement that the J-20 is "generationally" similar to the F-117, must be false, because with what YOU know, there is no way to determine that(true dat), and your assumption that because you a very sophisticated and knowledgeable poster on SDF (also true), that General Goldfein could not possibly have more and more accurate information that you, then his statement has to be false????

He is the United States Air Forces "Chief of Staff", and a real honest to God! Fighter Pilot----even you should know, that they "KNOW everything".....

really Blitzo, you are a very bright lad, and smart guys always know what they "don't know", and they also have an idea of when the "other guy" is very well informed??

why do you think I respect the Engineer??? because even though he's a little crotchety, he is very bright, and he has never lied to me, even though we come from very different perspectives, and we have argued, I know how much smarter he is than I am! and I have a great deal of respect for HONEST, Smart People, Jeff Head, BD, Scratch, Deino, Jura, Siege, and yes even you, Blitzo.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Faith is a $100.00 word for "trust", it is not only a Christian term, but is used in general conversation, just as Stoney used it here. I do trust General Goldfein, and agree with his assessment, you are free to believe it or don't?? Obviously lots of you are cynical and are used to your own governments lying to YOU!

I'm not, I'm one of those "deplorable" who find BHO, HRC, and WJC deplorable, pathological liars, and crooks in the good old Chicago sense of "Thugs". I do not trust them, but I trust George W. Bush, even though I often had disagreements with him and his policies, he had and has a genuine love for this country and our people, as well as those of other nations.....
I don't trust anybody unless I get something from that person that I can do analysis myself. Before anything, I take the altitude of "I hear what you say".

yes, I may be fooled by my government's lie (but not yet since I was born), I will wait and deal with that situation in the future if it happened. So NO, I am not used to my own government's lying, for that I don't share such experience with you.

I don't bother your or Blackstone's altitude towards US politicians. But I respect your thoughts. On the specific case of George W. Bush, I do sincerely believe that you should not have trusted him. You may agree with his act of preserving US World status. But do you believe the Iraqi WMD was baseless? Do you not agree that the Iraqi war was responsible for depleting US resources and prestige? If your answers are yes, then how could you trust G. W. Bush? It is not a question that I expect an answer, but my conclusion of this discussion as it is way OT from J-20.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Theres no doubt that you are lacking information, but I can assure you that General Goldfein, who flew the "wobbling goblin" knows what he is talking about, and has every bit of intelligence that has EVER been gathered by any of our allies available to him. We disseminate that information to our allied Air Force partners as well....

Your inference that he has NO realistic performance or equipment data on the J-20 belies a very limited understanding of the military and our certainly more than adequate intelligence services..... I would state with absolute confidence that General Goldfein knows the J-20's performance parameters with a range of + or - 10%..

I'm sure he and the US Air Force has a whole bunch of realistic performance and equipment data on J-20, definitely more than we do.


However, I doubt he or anyone else in the US military intelligence community has the comprehensive information that you'd need to do any sort of comprehensive and accurate analysis.

That is because I expect that sort of detailed information to be very well guarded by the Chinese Air Force, and also because the Chinese Air Force themselves probably don't yet know how well the J-20 performs because they haven't deployed it.
 

Inst

Captain
@Blackstone: Umm, because it's the F-35? You know, that US project that ate up the USAF's funding for an aircraft that's behind schedule and under specs? Moreover, the F-35 that's supposed to be the low in the IS hi-lo combination?
 

Inst

Captain
Blackstone: Put the shoe on the other foot. Imagine the Russian government coming in and telling us that the PAK-FA is way better than the F-22 and can defeated the dreaded NATO menace. Would you believe that?
 
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