b787
Captain
and by the way if they are fitting Al-31FN3 it means Russia can cap the production line by simply stop the supply of engines, i do not think the Chinese would like to be dependent upon Russia for the J-20 engines
J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V
- Thread starter Deino
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I completely agree with You, the AL-31FN Series 3 is not an ideal engine for the J-20 and the fact that the 117S has this and that is irrelevant but as so often You read only parts and take only what fits Your opinion.
My reply was specifically related to these two things of Your statements:
And that is simply wrong: the Series 3 is one of the most modern versions of the AL-31 and it has not a thrust of only 12.5 t.
As such ... nothing more, nothing less, but again it shows how biased Your chosen statements are.
Again, nothing more.
Deino
That was ever the fact since the first AL-31F was delivered to China together with the first Flanker and even more for the J-10 ... so why should it be now a problem ?
b787
Captain
Let us take things by parts, was i wrong about the model? yes i was i thought they only had 12.5 variants, if you want from me apologies, for that you can have it, for me is not the end of the world.
Now it is wishy washy because you say and by that i mean most of you, its length is 19.7 meters, in that moment, the information is right, so when it fits you accept the numbers.
Now 27 tonnes is the most likely max thrust it has with Al-31s, and a likely 30 tonnes normal take off is logic, because it will not weigh less than 19 tonnes considering the length of the fuselage and the weapons bays which add weight and drag.
F-22 as well as T-50 use TVC nozzles for not only turn rate, but for drag, stealth, pitch rate and roll rate, drag is of capital importance considering the weapons bays increase fuselage width and cross section, but i am not going to argue that, the J-20 is not going to have without TVC nozzles and a thrust to weight ration of less than 1, an easy walk on the park with aircraft like Eurofighter because the F-22 having better engines did not have an easy time with Eurofighter in WVR mock combat.
For dodging missiles you need agility and a good set of jammers to jam the radar on the homing head of the missile, considered it
Again ... I have no problem with the second part of Your post, You are correct like I already said and I surely do not want or need an apology !
All I ask for is esp. in regard to Russian sources a bit to a more realistic point of view; do not o0verhype them ... since You often use only the things that make Chinese things look bad if they fit and esp. Russian ones when they show a certain superiority to "proof" Your opinion ...
Anyway IMO You most often take the wrong sources ... but that's my opinion and especially You mix things that do not have the slightest connection. Your statement of thrust and "age" was simply wrong; no problem, but to connect it with the fact that the 117S has a higher thrust and TVC is completely irrelevant; at least concerning Your statement it is nearly as relevant as to tell water is wet, the sky is blue and I love my family; these are also facts.
So long,
Deino
All I ask for is esp. in regard to Russian sources a bit to a more realistic point of view; do not o0verhype them ... since You often use only the things that make Chinese things look bad if they fit and esp. Russian ones when they show a certain superiority to "proof" Your opinion ...
Anyway IMO You most often take the wrong sources ... but that's my opinion and especially You mix things that do not have the slightest connection. Your statement of thrust and "age" was simply wrong; no problem, but to connect it with the fact that the 117S has a higher thrust and TVC is completely irrelevant; at least concerning Your statement it is nearly as relevant as to tell water is wet, the sky is blue and I love my family; these are also facts.
So long,
Deino
vesicles
Colonel
What do you mean by "wishy-washy"? I simply asked a question, very logical question. My intention was never to discuss China's import of Russian engines.
My question was purely technical. As we all know, the weight of the plane doesn't paint the whole story. An F-15 is much much heavier than an F-16. Does it mean that the F-15 is an inferior plane? In your original post, you only mentioned the weight of the J-20 and used that to argue that the J-20 would be an inferior plane because of its weight. I only wanted to remind you that it is the thrust-to-weight ratio that matters. One can only talk about how the engine is affecting the J-20 with BOTH the thrust of the engine AND the weight of the plane known. that's why I asked about the version of the AL-31 and possible specs on its thrust.
That was ALL my intention.
b787
Captain
To make it short, i am not interested in annoying our Chinese friends, so i will be brief and this is my last reply to you regarding this matter.
F-15 weighs 13 tonnes, it is basically in the same metrics of F-22, but F-22 weighs 19 tonnes empty, do you expect J-20 to weigh less than F-22? all these stealth machines are heavy, very heavy aircraft because they have internal weapons bays, a MiG-29 sits in the 11 tonnes range empty weight, and the Su-27 in the 16 tonnes; PAKFA by having internal weapons bays weighs around 19 tonnes too.
by size PAKFA fits the size range of F-18E, or F-15, around 19 meters, between MiG-29 and Su-27, but it is heavier than both jets at empty weight
.To be stealthy, they need to carry not only weapons but lots of fuel inside the aircraft in internal fuel tanks, i ask you do you think Al-31FN by having higher thrust to weight ratio on afterburner will allow J-20 to supercruise?
The Russians are saying T-50s 117 engines are not economical enough, the jet can supercruise but not well, they have not released data but according to many Su-35 has not the supercruise capability of F-22, it is believable.
Eurofighter, is an aerodynamic jewel, same Rafale, such fighters can stand their ground against F-22 and in pure aerodynamics surpass the F-35, the F-35 uses advanced avionics and stealth to stay away and advanced missiles to fight at short range cued with HMS.
If you are going to say J-20 specifications are BS as it was stated not by you but by Siege, then what are you going to believe?
In my opinion the engines are not the ones it needs and fighters like Eurofighter, Rafale are highly advanced not to mention Su-35, is not the Russian sources, it is simply stealth aircraft weight more than the previous generation, in fact F-35s weighs as much as an F-15 and F-22 as much an F-14 or a MiG-31 at empty weight, this tells you a lot about even despite there are new materials the 5th generation aircraft are trying to squeeze all the external goodies inside and packing them has disadvantages specially if you consider Eurofighter weighs 11 tonnes and F-16 is much lighter at 7 tonnes empty weight
vesicles
Colonel
F-15 weighs 13 tonnes, it is basically in the same metrics of F-22, but F-22 weighs 19 tonnes empty, do you expect J-20 to weigh less than F-22? all these stealth machines are heavy, very heavy aircraft because they have internal weapons bays, a MiG-29 sits in the 11 tonnes range empty weight, and the Su-27 in the 16 tonnes; PAKFA by having internal weapons bays weighs around 19 tonnes too.
by size PAKFA fits the size range of F-18E, or F-15, around 19 meters, between MiG-29 and Su-27, but it is heavier than both jets at empty weight
............
it is simply stealth aircraft weight more than the previous generation, in fact F-35s weighs as much as an F-15 and F-22 as much an F-14 or a MiG-31 at empty weight, this tells you a lot about even despite there are new materials the 5th generation aircraft are trying to squeeze all the external goodies inside and packing them has disadvantages specially if you consider Eurofighter weighs 11 tonnes and F-16 is much lighter at 7 tonnes empty weight
Yet, the heavier F-22 is so much more maneuverable than the much lighter 4th gen fighters... Talking about weight alone is useless...
The spec also claims that the J-20N is a 9G fighter. You can't cherry pick evidence just so that it suits your argument.
b787
Captain
F-16, F-5 and Su-27s are also 9G fighters.
The measurement is always TWR and wing loading, few days ago a read a very good article which compared Su-35 versus F-22 and F-35.
The wing loading on Su-35 is near 400 kg/square meter, fighters like Eurofighter are in the 320 kg/square meters.
F-22 also has a relatively low wing loading if i am not wrong it is near 360 kg/square meters, the F-15 has a similar wing loading, but if you compare the F-15 to the Su-27 you will find the Eagle has lower wing loading counted as wing but the Su-27 has fuselage lift, so the Su-27 is highly capable.
The Eurofighter having lower wing loading and relatively higher TWR can match up the F-22 with TVC nozzles, it has been proven in exercises that the Eurofighter can dogfight with the Raptor on equal terms, because TVC nozzles do not increase turn rates higher than 10 per cent.
For the J-20 to match up the best fourth generation fighters needs wing loading in the range of 330 kg square meter like Eurofighter and Rafale have, i do not know the if it has that but it will be a most, and a TWR of more than 1 at normal take off weight F-35 despite all the American propaganda , it has appalling aerodynamics and is highly dependent upon avionics and stealth, it has a wing loading of more than 400 kg per square meters so whatever they say a high wing loading means it is not better than Eurofighter in dogfights at WVR if the fight is who is better turning and burning.
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