Can we please return to topic? Thanks.
J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V
- Thread starter Deino
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A bit out of topic here. For the price comparison between Chinese and US fighter, I think it is not fair if we use the USD and the American standard price tag as the basis. Because they are different. A middle income Chinese who live in Shanghai can enjoy the same luxury level as the American middle income who live in New York. But they spend fewer just because the RMB value is lower than the USD. But it doesn't mean that the Chinese is poorer than the American.
It is the same as the Chinese Jet Fighter; like the J-10A and J-20. They look cheaper than the American Jet Fighter not because they have lower value than the equivalent American Jet. But because they paid the material, the workers, etc with RMB. I don't say that J-10A can beat F-16 or vice versa. But if it is the American who build the J-10A, the price tag will be way higher than the Chinese J-10A. Maybe approaching the F-16 Price tag; simply because they have to pay the workers, material, etc with USD.
So because of that, I believe that J-20 won't reach USD 100 million price tag. Maybe they are about 60 - 80 Million USD. But because of the exchange rate between USD and RMB, it will cost more than 100 million USD if you produce the J-20 in US.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Maybe also VAT or tax less important in China ?
Oman 600 mill $ for 12 : 50/one
Iraq 2nd batch 830 mill for 18 : 46/one
Maybe support, training with but very few, so 40/45 seems good.
Remains F-16E/F Block 60 more sophisticated no price for 2nd batch in order but for the first :
6,8 billions for 80 in 2005 about : 85 mill/one but UAE have also pay for developped this new customized variant then saying 65/70 ?
SIPRI prices
Seems few i think old price the 2 last customers for Block 50/52 :
Oman 600 mill $ for 12 : 50/one
Iraq 2nd batch 830 mill for 18 : 46/one
Maybe support, training with but very few, so 40/45 seems good.
Remains F-16E/F Block 60 more sophisticated no price for 2nd batch in order but for the first :
6,8 billions for 80 in 2005 about : 85 mill/one but UAE have also pay for developped this new customized variant then saying 65/70 ?
SIPRI prices
Sorry i see now
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If that's the price of J-20 in USD, then the Chinese Government see J-20 way more expensive than the F-35. Because they paid it with RMB. Or maybe it is the value of J-20 if it was made in US? But let us consider that it is the price tag of J-20 in USD that made in China. It means that J-20 has higher (more expensive than F-35 / unit). But it doesn't mean it is more superior than F-35. The reason is maybe because the limitation that the Chinese has to obtain the material / production capability compared to the US.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
Just because someone came up with $110m doesn't make it anything like reality.
Unless they can provide some very convincing workings, that just looks like the F35's projected cost rounded.
Also, please show me where you can get a late gen F16 for $34m and I'll line you up every F16 user, including the USAF, wanting some more for that price.
In China, the R&D expenditure for a new military aircraft (or for that matter most programs) is budgeted separately and is not included in the out-of-gate factory price. It would be apple to orange if you compare the factory price of an Chinese military aircraft with a corresponding US aircraft price. Unless it's exported, it's not easy to get the real price of a military aircraft.
AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
It's comparing apples and oranges because the US contracts private entities for profit to develop and produce their military hardware. So costs are going to be different in China and the US.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
I think it's less to do with evil greedy corporations (CAC also aims to make a profit after all), and more to do with better budgetary discipline and goal setting.
Whenever you watch a western documentary about their latest and greatest weapons system, invariably you get some wide-eye fanboy enthusing about how it costs 90% of the money and effort to get that last 10% of performance, and express that as some great prideful accomplishment.
Well, if you select the superme super delux presidential all inclusive menu option, you can expect to have to pay silly prices for the pleasure.
But what makes things even worse is that the options the US military invariably pick are not only super expensive, they are also highly risky.
Look at the likes of Commanche, F35, LCS, DDG1000 etc.
All ridiculously over-engineered with every advance idea and option imaginable being thrown in irrespective of cost, timeframe or even operational utility it seems sometimes (rail guns on the DDG1000 for example, do you really want such a monstrously expensive warship so close to a hostile coast, if you only plan to send them in after the coast has been secured, well then, do you really need those ships at all?).
In stark comparison, look at the J20. The Chinese were pragmatic enough to decouple engines from airframe, knowing engines was where they had the most risk and likely sources of delay.
They are prepared to take LIRP J20s with underpowered engines as an interim solution. That means the project isn't delayed by the engines, and also gives the engine development team potentially several years more to perfect the next gen engine, lowering costs and increasing the chances of the engine programme being a success.
I'd like to think the primary reason is that's the price to pay for leading the development of modern military.
(IMO US military's tendency to over-engineer stuff is a indirect result of having a ridiculously high budget for everything)
I'll use the DDG1000 as a example. Since US military likes to keep one generation ahead of everyone else. They thought the defining features for next generation of naval warships would be railguns and extreme stealth. So they made DDG1000 and found out that they are probably wrong.
The US military had to experiment with lots and lots of radical, even absurd ideas just to find the few that works to keep the lead.
While China has been following the US's footsteps and that eliminates some of the risk of "being wrong". Who knows what China will make when there's no one to follow.
Judging from things like DF-21D and WU-14, seems like China is fairly good at "following no one" but as of now there is just so much catch up work for China to do.
Personally I can't wait to see what China has to offer in the future.
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