J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread IV (Closed to posting)

[plawolf]

What's not correlating?

Someone was indeed got caught for smuggling the aerospace-grade carbon-fiber - it doesn't mean China can't produce carbon fiber, it just meant they probably can't produce one of same comparable quality that the american used on F-22 and F-35. But the news indicate they KNOW exactly what type and which one they need, which means it will only be matter of time before they figure how to produce them.

Not necessarily.

Firstly, there is simply no way any reasonable person could expect China to be able to obtain enough special carbon fiber for a stealth fighter programme.

Secondly, as others have already pointed out, when it comes to material sciences, there is usually almost no way to 'reverse-engineer' something using just a physical example.

Obtaining such materials would have minimal beneficial impact on Chinese stealth aircraft development.

What such materials could be extreme useful for is counter stealth resource if they are what the F22 or F35 are made of, since they would have the same properties, so if you build a scale model using that material, you can get a pretty good baseline what how radar emissions would interact with the target aircraft. That could give you markers you can programme your own radars to look out for to increase the chance of being able to detect a stealth aircraft even when the returns from it are much smaller than your usual detection threshold.

Kinda similar to why it is extremely useful for navies to try and get a good clear recording of opfor sub noise signatures.

 

[Franklin]

Isn't China only able to mass produce T-800 carbon fiber just last year ? I don't know about T-900 and T-1000 carbon fiber. And this year China is able to mass produce highly purified titanium. So material science in China is definitely on a upward swing but then again they are still behind compared to the US.

The story about China mass producing T-800 carbon fiber below.

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The story about China mass producing highly purified titanium below

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[broadsword]

Carbon Fiber is not for the RAM paint. Its for the construction of the airframe (aircraft body).
And of course, there isn't any direct proof that J-20 will be using it - but it is strongly implied as this is how pretty much everyone (US, Russian)'s stealth fighters are made.

My point was if the smuggler was caught, how could you be certain that the J-20 was using "F-35's "baked-in stealth" when the contraband was seized?

 

[kwaigonegin]

Isn't China only able to mass produce T-800 carbon fiber just last year ? I don't know about T-900 and T-1000 carbon fiber. And this year China is able to mass produce highly purified titanium. So material science in China is definitely on a upward swing but then again they are still behind compared to the US.

The story about China mass producing T-800 carbon fiber below.

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The story about China mass producing highly purified titanium below

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Goes hand in hand with jet engines and turbine blades. I believe china's archilles heel in making comparable jet engines to the likes of PW, GE etc is in material science. However that goes the same for everyone. Everybody is always looking for that perfect material. Lighter, stronger, more durable, resistant to extreme heat, cold etc.

 

[Ultra]

My point was if the smuggler was caught, how could you be certain that the J-20 was using "F-35's "baked-in stealth" when the contraband was seized?

Like I was saying, I can't be certain, it can only be implied that Chinese may be pursuing the same technology to try to achieve the same level of performance as the F-22 or F-35 or PAK FA. The fact that they are looking for this particular type of carbon fiber material indicate their desire for the material, but of course we cannot conclusively prove if they will use it in their end product (J-20).

But currently, to achieve "proper" stealth, you will definitely need to go carbon fiber airframe to get decent stealth capability (besides platforming at design stage). RAM paint won't do much even if you shape the plane according to the stealth shaping principle as it will only relegate the design to 4+ generation fighters at most. So if China spent billions to develop a stealth fighter - do you think they will merely make it look stealthy with a coat of RAM paint on top?

If you don't believe me, you can watch this little introduction on how they make PAK FA:
[video=youtube;KvyAbM67yKI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvyAbM67yKI[/video]


Basically, a stealth fighter is design according to stealth shaping principles to minimize and scatter radar return, while the remaining radar energy is to be absorb by the RAM paint, and the airframe body. Electronic warfare packages also plays part in minimizing and confusing enemy sensors from detecting the plane.

So, if China don't go with "baked-in stealth" carbon fiber body - I seriously don't know what else they have that can make their J-20 to achieve the same stealth performance as F-22/F-35/PAK FA. Maybe they figure out the fable "Plasma Stealth"! Who knows?! But I seriously doubt it.

I think they are currently flying with limited composite/titanium/aluminium airframe or of the much lower quality carbon fiber airframe. Acquiring the high performance carbon fiber will give them better idea on how to produce the same material for their own use.

 

[broadsword]

Now I understand your message better. But as the others have pointed out, China does have carbon fiber technology.

 

[Ultra]

Isn't China only able to mass produce T-800 carbon fiber just last year ? I don't know about T-900 and T-1000 carbon fiber. And this year China is able to mass produce highly purified titanium. So material science in China is definitely on a upward swing but then again they are still behind compared to the US.

The story about China mass producing T-800 carbon fiber below.

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The story about China mass producing highly purified titanium below

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That's amazing find, highly informative. Thanks for the link Franklin.

As I was saying before - China was obviously trying to acquire M60JB carbon fiber and got busted for it.


From the link you provided above:

"The new carbon-fiber plant of Jiangsu Hangke Composite Materials Technology has a capacity of 50 metric tons of T800 carbon fiber a year, plus 100 tons of T700, the company says. A plant with a capacity of 1,000 tons of T800 a year is coming online, with capacity for 50 tons a year of M55J carbon fiber. The country will also work on the T1000 and M60J, which is another higher grade, Jiangsu Hangke says, giving no dates.

The “T” numbers approximately indicate the strength of the fibers, which are impregnated with resin and then baked to create carbon-fiber-reinforced plastic—composite. Toray describes its T1000G as “the world's highest-tensile-strength carbon fiber,” with a rating of 6,370 megapascals (9,239 psi). Jiangsu Hangke says its T800 has a tensile strength of 5,709 megapascals, while Toray rates its T800S fiber at 5,880 megapascals. The advantages to China in using its T800 in military aircraft are obvious from the relatively modest 3,530-megapascal strength of Toray's T300, which has been made for about three decades.

The U.S. and its allies do not export T800 carbon fiber to China, in order to prevent its use in military aircraft there. In May, a Chinese man pleaded guilty in a U.S. court to trying to take Toray T800 from the U.S. to China."

 

[broadsword]

That's amazing find. Thanks for the link Franklin.

As I was saying before - China was obviously trying to acquire M60JB carbon fiber and got busted for it.


From the link you provided above:

"... In May, a Chinese man pleaded guilty in a U.S. court to trying to take Toray T800 from the U.S. to China."

It does not prove a relation to J-20. That man could well be acting on his own and for his own benefit.

 

[Ultra]

Now I understand your message better. But as the others have pointed out, China does have carbon fiber technology.

They do, but right now not of the same quality or caliber. They are still far behind the market leader Japan - which strangely is supplying the American to make their F-22 and F-35.

Before last year, China was still using the T-300 Carbon Fiber (which has been around for over 3 decades since it was invented in Japan) - which is less than half the strength of what T-1000 carbon fiber. Like I pointed out in the previous post - China is probably using lower grade lower strength carbon fiber for the airframe on their J-20 and J-31 prototypes (both of which are made before 2012 - before opening of the new carbon fiber plant that can produce T-800 in China) - either that or they are still using aerospace grade aluminium for the body but is actively looking for the replacement.

From the article provided by Franklin:

"China's state companies are not yet supplying aerospace aluminum to the global market, although they make the material for Chinese military aircraft and civil aircraft whose certification is not recognized by developed countries. That, too, is about to change, however. Airbus is working to qualify metal from the government's Southwest Aluminum. The material will be conventional aerospace-grade aluminum, not the more recent advanced aluminums or aluminum-lithium, says Antoine Gaugler, Airbus's purchasing manager for Asia. Aleris, a U.S. company, has set up a plant to make conventional aerospace aluminum in eastern China at Zhenjiang (AW&ST May 27, p. 37). "

 

[delft]

It does not prove a relation to J-20. That man could well be acting on his own and for his own benefit.

He might have been offered money to acquire it and get it to China by a FBI agent without any input from China. Such things happen.