J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread IV (Closed to posting)

[hardware]

I think the finless one might be a dummy missile. You don't think they're PL-12s? They do look a little big, but it's hard to be sure about size?

EDIT: Nevermind, it doesn't look like the PL-12 at all. The fins are completely different.

Huitong report of clipped wing version known PL-12C design for J-20 and J-31.

 

[Quickie]

Some random model means nothing, and things said over at the butthurt forum means even less.

Here is a model of a J20 at an actual defence show with 6 missiles in the main bay, I leave it to everyone to decide for themselves which model is more credible.

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I too find it hard to believe what was claimed - the T-50 has a deeper main bay than J-20. The T-50 main bay is recessed in between the 2 engines fairing and this itself reduces the depth of the main bay.

 

[Deino]

Fine .... As assumed by the psed images already posted, it is indeed a new AAM and these images reveal a lot of additional details as well they rise additional questions:
It’s alone remarkable, since this weapon – sometimes called PL-X-15 – was so far only seen under one J-11B operated by the Special Missile Test unit at Base 14, Dingxing AB.

My first estimation was that the new AAM is a PL-12-based design with new fins to allow internal storage, but following these images, I’m almost sure it is indeed a completele new design featuring a much wider diameter and is even longer than the PL-12.

As such it seems as if (even if only two missile racks now installed in one bay) the J-20 has actually four missile stations in each bay but – and if You look closely – there is one more attachment point for a possible additional third missiles between those two.

In my opinion the J-20 has the capability to carry two of this large PL-X-15 or two of the standard wide-fin PL-12 but most likely up to three missiles with cropped or folding fins like rumoured PL-12C.

Hope for more,
Deino

 

[Totoro]

I would concur, it's a whole new missile, a completely new design. I wouldn't say it's longer than pl-12, the length seems to be about the same, around 3,8 meters. But everything else about it is different. The shape of fins, the size of fins and the diameter of missile. If i'm not wrong, it's diameter is 25cm, or 25% bigger than pl-12.

It's really a huge missile, volume wise. So much so that i expect to see smaller ones, closer to pl-12 in size to come alongside it. It makes sense, though, to have and use two different classes of BVR missiles. Interesting times ahead.

 

[Blitzo]

Indeed, but now I wonder where the ramjet "PL-21" comes in, as last we heard it is still an ongoing project.

This "PL-15" had a larger diameter (meaning greater range, radar seeker, bigger motor etc) and will yield a significant advantage over a crop winged PL-12. But would a ramjet PL-21 also offer a significant increase in performance over PL-15? It must, for having two programmes with overlapping performance is a no no for any procurement process. So I wonder if J-30 may soon have three BVRAAM options to choose from, but my question is whether thy will offer substantially different performance.



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Also I have to say I am helluva surprised that we still haven't seen PAK FAs open weapon bays yet, and that J-20s weapon bay pics came out so clear, so quick

 

[AssassinsMace]

But there's this...

 

[plawolf]

Indeed, but now I wonder where the ramjet "PL-21" comes in, as last we heard it is still an ongoing project.

This "PL-15" had a larger diameter (meaning greater range, radar seeker, bigger motor etc) and will yield a significant advantage over a crop winged PL-12. But would a ramjet PL-21 also offer a significant increase in performance over PL-15? It must, for having two programmes with overlapping performance is a no no for any procurement process. So I wonder if J-30 may soon have three BVRAAM options to choose from, but my question is whether thy will offer substantially different performance.



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Also I have to say I am helluva surprised that we still haven't seen PAK FAs open weapon bays yet, and that J-20s weapon bay pics came out so clear, so quick

The ramjet PL21 is a PL12 replacement weapon, whereas this new missile is a new class of long range missile altogether, almost certainly with significantly more range (and/or higher speed) than both the PL12 and PL21, perhaps at the expense of agility, and is more suited to shooting at large, lumbering enemy force multipliers like AWACS, MPAs and tankers etc rather than fighters. Although having a VLR BVRAAM allowing you to engage the enemy fighters before they can retaliate will obviously be useful in combat as well.

In that respect, a cropped fin PL12 will only be a stop gap measure until the PL21 becomes operational, and once it is, the J20 and J31 will just replace PL12s with the new PL21, much like how the US and Russia will replace the AIM120 and R77 with their respective ramjet versions once those become available.

The J20 will likely work with a three missile arsenal for air dominance, with the PL10 for WVR and a mix of PL12s and this new missile for BVR, and then move on to PL21 and this new missile once the PL21 is operational.

A typical war load will probably be 2xPL10s, and either 6xPL12/PL21, or 3xPL12/PL21 plus 2xthis new missile.

From just the pictures, I get the impression that the J20's main bay is longer than the F22's, which could explain why the seem to have opted for a flush three missile carrage rather than the layout the F22 has gone with. This would allow the J20 to carry 6 missiles longer than the current PL12, whereas the F22 would loose two missile slots if they were to be equipped with a missile longer than the AIM120.

Does anyone have an estimate of the J20's main weapons bay dimension so we can compare it to that if the F22's bay?

 

[Totoro]

Here's a comparison with newest image. pl-12 seems to be a pretty much exact match. Fins are different of course, but body seems to be the same.

 

[plawolf]

View attachment 7999 Here's a comparison with newest image. pl-12 seems to be a pretty much exact match. Fins are different of course, but body seems to be the same.

All missile bodies except ramjets are pretty much all exact matches of each other. This new missile looks to be wider and longer than the PL12.

 

[Blitzo]

The ramjet PL21 is a PL12 replacement weapon, whereas this new missile is a new class of long range missile altogether, almost certainly with significantly more range (and/or higher speed) than both the PL12 and PL21, perhaps at the expense of agility, and is more suited to shooting at large, lumbering enemy force multipliers like AWACS, MPAs and tankers etc rather than fighters. Although having a VLR BVRAAM allowing you to engage the enemy fighters before they can retaliate will obviously be useful in combat as well.

In that respect, a cropped fin PL12 will only be a stop gap measure until the PL21 becomes operational, and once it is, the J20 and J31 will just replace PL12s with the new PL21, much like how the US and Russia will replace the AIM120 and R77 with their respective ramjet versions once those become available.

The J20 will likely work with a three missile arsenal for air dominance, with the PL10 for WVR and a mix of PL12s and this new missile for BVR, and then move on to PL21 and this new missile once the PL21 is operational.

A typical war load will probably be 2xPL10s, and either 6xPL12/PL21, or 3xPL12/PL21 plus 2xthis new missile.

From just the pictures, I get the impression that the J20's main bay is longer than the F22's, which could explain why the seem to have opted for a flush three missile carrage rather than the layout the F22 has gone with. This would allow the J20 to carry 6 missiles longer than the current PL12, whereas the F22 would loose two missile slots if they were to be equipped with a missile longer than the AIM120.

Does anyone have an estimate of the J20's main weapons bay dimension so we can compare it to that if the F22's bay?

Unfortunately with the newest picture, which removes the angling effect making this missile seem wider, it seems this is just PL-12 with reduced wingspan (yet they still cannot fit six). The only possibility that this is not PL-12 is if it has the same body/diameter ratio but is larger in those respects. Unfortunately there's no way to properly test that because we don't know how big J-29 or its weapons bay is, and the pics with J-11B carrying a test round of this missile from way back when is too blurry to be useful.

So at this point I'm in limbo in terms of how many missiles this thing can carry, what his mystery missile is (PL-15 or a cropped PL-12), and where PL-21 fits in here.