J-15 carrier fighter thread
- Thread starter Jeff Head
- Start date
Popeye and I exchanged posts on the PLAN Photo thread which I thought deserved to be posted here on the J-15 thread as well. Here it is:
Two points:
1) The PLAN has used at least three of those prototype aircraft aboard the Liaoning on many occassions to this point.
2) With the six serial production aircraft, and at least the three carrier-qualified prototypes, the PLAN could do a LOT, and I mean a LOT more pilot and squadron training, qualification, and certification whenever they want to.
I hope, after the Liaoning comes out of her current maintenance period, that we will see the PLAN doing this. A lot more aircraft/pilot trianing, qualification, and certification. I'd love to see the PLAN standing up their first actual squardron of J-15s.
You are welcome.
Two points:
1) The PLAN has used at least three of those prototype aircraft aboard the Liaoning on many occassions to this point.
2) With the six serial production aircraft, and at least the three carrier-qualified prototypes, the PLAN could do a LOT, and I mean a LOT more pilot and squadron training, qualification, and certification whenever they want to.
I hope, after the Liaoning comes out of her current maintenance period, that we will see the PLAN doing this. A lot more aircraft/pilot trianing, qualification, and certification. I'd love to see the PLAN standing up their first actual squardron of J-15s.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
I think its given that the PLAN are doing a lot of training with these J15s, just not on the Liaoning yet.
You may not agree with it, but the PLAN training methodology seems to be to get as much done on land as humanly possible on their carrier similuatitor airfield, then move to carrier training for qualifications and advanced stuff they can't easily simulate on land.
Probably not as time efficient as full-on training on a carrier from start to finish, but when you consider the fact that the daily operating cost for a carrier out at sea is around the $1M mark (that's ottomh, couldn't seem to find a reliable source for the daily operating cost of the Kitty Hawk, which I think would be a good ballpark figure), you can easily see why the PLAN decided against sending the Liaoning out too often before she has a full airwing and full complement of qualified pilots.
That seems pretty much consistent with the Chinese practice of being willing to settle for 80,90% if it means they only need to spend 50,60% of the money it would have cost to get to 100%.
Remember the Liaoning is China's first carrier, so they are literally writing the book as they go along. The Chinese culture and mentality also places extremely high emphasis on laying strong foundations, so I fully expect the PLAN to take their time in the first few years to make sure they get everything right before moving on to the 'massed production' phase.
Bare in mind we usually only see what is going on with the Liaoning, while the bulk of the hard work is probably being done at the various land based facilities and unobservable until they put what they learnt and practiced to the test on the Liaoning. So if we are only judging progress by what we see happening with the Liaoning, I would expect sudden bursts of intense activity, usually operating at very high levels (just like how smoothly the highly publicised first landings and take offs on the Liaoning went), followed by long periods of relative inactivity, when the focus and work shifts to classrooms and land based facilities. And then the cycle continues again.
So, when the Liaoning next puts out to sea after the shake down cruise from her time back in the shipyard, I would not be surprised if she leaves with a full airwing, starts off with some easy qualification traps, and then move rapidly into stuff like night ops, buddy refuelling, and ultimately launch and recovery of the entire airwing in rapid succession. That may not be very rapid by international standard, but that's only to be expected, and I think the goal will be to test out their turnaround time, spot any bottlenecks and/or problem areas.
They would then go back to the classroom, theories on fixes and workarounds or revise the entire SOP if needed, practice till they are at a high standard on land. Then finally take the Liaoning out to put all that theory and practice to the test.
They will keep doing things in such cycles until they think they have developed a complete and robust playbook, and then I would expect them to send the Liaoning out on some proper long runs, maybe even participating in anti-piracy patrols.
That is just one cycle, they may well opt to run multiple cycles, either simultaneously or concurrently to have two or more sets of crews trained up for rotations, and potentially to start working up the first indigenous carrier/carriers as it is/they are completed.
If they do it that way, I would expect the indigenous carriers to to worked up in a fraction of the time the Liaoning has taken, and may well adopt a more American style training and work up route whereby the carrier spends a lot more time out at sea from the get-go.
But that will only be possible because of the hard work and foundations laid down with the Liaoning and the infrastructure and talent pool operating her will build up.
On the flip side, since the Liaoning does not have any of those advantages and foundations, of course she is going to take longer and operate differently compared to how an established carrier power would work up new carrier classes. To compare how the Liaoning is doing with how the US would work up a carrier is comparing apples to oranges really.
No arguement from me. The PLAN has invested a LOT of money, time, and effort into this. And they are doing it their way. There is no doubt that they are going to get there. And they are proving that by the commitment they have made, and continue to make.
Again, good points all, and I agree completely.
Yes...but eventually it has to come to the carrier. Some of that has happened...but there is a lot more of to happen.
Sometimes it is all too easy to look at it and think that maybe it could, or even should, happen faster...but then again, we are not the PLAN, and they are doing this according to their timetable, not ours.
Well, while I would love to see a full air wing after the current maintainence cycle...I would be very surprised if they did.
I expect they will do a shake down cruise at first with not many aircraft (if any) aboard to ensure that whatever they did physically to the ship is in good order.
After that, in fairly quick order, I expect we will see more aircraft come aboard. Quite frankly, at this stage, and given the way they have progressed to date, I would be estatic to see six aircraft on the vessel at one time once they get back into air operations, training, qualification, etc.
I expect they will work up...again at their pace...to a full squadron of twelve aircraft after that. As they do, at some point they will announce that that first squadron has been stood up and is operational.
How long will that take? Who knows. It will be according to the PLAN's timetable which we are not privy to. But I expect we will see steady progress towards it however long it takes. An that will be exciting to watch.
Again, agreed. It will be interesting and exciting to watch it happen.
No nation has worked up a multiple carrier, large fixed, naval air-wing force in our life times. The US has had it in existance since before World War II...as did the Japanese at that time.
The Brits have been at it a long time too, also since before World War II, but on a smaller scale...and they have since moved away from it for several decades and now themselves will be building back up to two carriers.
The Indians are attempting something similar to China, going from one VTOL carrier to three larger fixed wing carriers...but I expect that what the PLAN does will ultimately be larger in scale and scope.
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antiterror13
Brigadier
Hi Jeff ... just a thought ... would it be possible that 100 is actually the final version of 551? and 101 for 552, and so on?
No, I do not believe that is the case al all.
Possible? Sure I suppose.
Likely? Not even remotely IMHO.
Prototypes and serial production are too distinctly different phases of aircraft testing and development.
The serial birds are the ones being produced now, and are based on everything they learned from the prototypes, particularly the early prototypes. There would be absolutely no reason to reconfigure and repaint prototypes as production aircraft when the production is ongoing.
antiterror13
Brigadier
Thanks Jeff ... so what happen then to the prototypes, to train the pilots only or put them in the museum or what, normally?
Generally, they will continue to be used for training and particularly for testing. Sometimes for years and years.
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
Jeff the second serial 101 looks like 107? Which off course we have not seen
Why is the 3rd digit so slanted looks more like a 7 and not a 1
Why is the 3rd digit so slanted looks more like a 7 and not a 1