J-15 carrier fighter thread

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
Oh please... they won't sell J-11Bs or any other kind of Flanker since they are not licenced even if they had one for the A-model with a strict no-export clause and you suggest to sell a completely illegal reverse manufactured carrierborne type even more to countries without a carrier???

A more stupid idea is really difficult to suggest.

Agree with most of this Deino. But please don't have a go. As I'm not expert in this.
I just want to know why do you think is an completely illegal reverse manufactured plane?

The reason is I thought Ukraine have the rights to the plane as well, and they may have sold that rights to China. Therefore it is not illegal.

Just my thoughts. I stand to be corrected.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
For export as j11 is russian licensed build
Why are you so obsessed with China exporting Flankers? China's not obsessed with it; China hasn't entertained the idea cus it has so many other things going on. And no matter how you modify a Flanker, it's still a Flanker. You can modify a J-11 into a J-15, then into another land variant, them modify it back into a naval variant, then modify that again into another land variant and so forth; it bears no meaning as long as it's still a Flanker. Russia will still be very very angry and China is still not interested in wasting time and resources on projects like that.
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
Agree with most of this Deino. But please don't have a go. As I'm not expert in this.
I just want to know why do you think is an completely illegal reverse manufactured plane?

The reason is I thought Ukraine have the rights to the plane as well, and they may have sold that rights to China. Therefore it is not illegal.

Just my thoughts. I stand to be corrected.

Completely illegal is probably too harsh, but certainly questionable.

From a Russian perspective, it’s obvious that the intellectual property is passed onto the successor corporation created from the Sukhoi design bureau.

However, you could make the argument that intellectual property of a Communist country is owned by the state. If that country no longer exists, you could argue that all the successor countries all have a share in it.

The question is that is it Ukraine’s “right” to sell the technical documentation? Much of the development of Su-33 was done in Crimea, so does that property rightfully belong to Ukraine? Russia annexed Crimea now, does that matter? lol

Frankly, I go by the saying “possession is 9/10ths of the law”.

Kind of off topic, but just because I was thinking about this very topic the other day after replying in the Flanker thread.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Completely illegal is probably too harsh, but certainly questionable.

From a Russian perspective, it’s obvious that the intellectual property is passed onto the successor corporation created from the Sukhoi design bureau.

However, you could make the argument that intellectual property of a Communist country is owned by the state. If that country no longer exists, you could argue that all the successor countries all have a share in it.

The question is that is it Ukraine’s “right” to sell the technical documentation? Much of the development of Su-33 was done in Crimea, so does that property rightfully belong to Ukraine? Russia annexed Crimea now, does that matter? lol

Frankly, I go by the saying “possession is 9/10ths of the law”.

Kind of off topic, but just because I was thinking about this very topic the other day after replying in the Flanker thread.


You are correct and indeed it was too harsh.

I even fully agree with @Totoro who stated a few weeks ago, that the legal issues might have been solved in the meantime with Russia.
Anyway, a Flanker remains a Flanker and Russia would never agree to sell them and I'm sure China has no interest to do so.

Even more I really don't understand why some are so much obsessed with this idea.
 

Jono

Junior Member
Registered Member
As I have suggested before.
Chinese culture puts honor and credibility on top of the list.
Hence I firmly believe Flankers will stay within Chinese borders, and are not for sale, unless a deal is struck with Russia for such sale.
But it is not in Russia's interest to see China selling Chinese Flankers ( competing against Su30, Su35 etc ) abroad, so the point is moot.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
As I have suggested before.
Chinese culture puts honor and credibility on top of the list.
Hence I firmly believe Flankers will stay within Chinese borders, and are not for sale, unless a deal is struck with Russia for such sale.
But it is not in Russia's interest to see China selling Chinese Flankers ( competing against Su30, Su35 etc ) abroad, so the point is moot.

Then Sukhoi and the Russian government would argue that unlicensed production of their design, even if it evolves into becoming only using the shell of their design, is without honour and credibility. Of course we understand the motivations for doing it back in the 90s and the flanker really truly is a still a remarkable aircraft design (the shell) to this day. It certainly gave the PLAAF a massive leg up and continue to form a potent backbone now with modernised subsystems and weapons.

The Russians are just thinking about all that money which could have been made if China purchased all the flankers from Russia... along with all associated equipment. Of course that's a real moot point because China would never have made such a purchase, to both country's loss since then Russia would still not have that virtual hypothetical money and China would not have this many flankers. Naturally China decided to have the flankers. I suppose in commiseration, Russia has sort of been paid back by having a stronger, friendly, and stable China in its eastern flank that is more than happy to support Russia's economy wherever and whenever it has been able to. Perhaps it's comforting to think that without the hundreds of Sino-flankers, China would have less of a chance defending itself and less money to spend elsewhere in Russian purchases. Flankers are not the only thing China's purchased/purchasing from Russia and this important point is perhaps why Russian leaders are quite silent about the whole flanker issue despite a flare up many years ago.
 
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sahureka

Junior Member
Registered Member
Completely illegal is probably too harsh, but certainly questionable.

From a Russian perspective, it’s obvious that the intellectual property is passed onto the successor corporation created from the Sukhoi design bureau.

However, you could make the argument that intellectual property of a Communist country is owned by the state. If that country no longer exists, you could argue that all the successor countries all have a share in it.

The question is that is it Ukraine’s “right” to sell the technical documentation? Much of the development of Su-33 was done in Crimea, so does that property rightfully belong to Ukraine? Russia annexed Crimea now, does that matter? lol

Frankly, I go by the saying “possession is 9/10ths of the law”.

Kind of off topic, but just because I was thinking about this very topic the other day after replying in the Flanker thread.

The legal successor to the USSR is the Russian Federation which also inherited the UN seat, if the intellectual property of the projects in the USSR were of the state, they should automatically pass to the Russian Federation.
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
You are correct and indeed it was too harsh.

I even fully agree with @Totoro who stated a few weeks ago, that the legal issues might have been solved in the meantime with Russia.
Anyway, a Flanker remains a Flanker and Russia would never agree to sell them and I'm sure China has no interest to do so.

Even more I really don't understand why some are so much obsessed with this idea.

Thanks and @supersnoop thanks.

Yes, I believe it is silly to even think about exporting the flanker.

With the legality of J11. I'm not sure about. Particularly some of you say it's Russia that inherited the rights etc. I'll go along with that.
But with the J15, China never had a SU33 (Russian) to copy from. It had one T10 from Ukraine. So it hasn't infringe anything of Russia. And it bought the T10 legally to study and to work from there.

So your views on this to help me would be appreciated.
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
The legal successor to the USSR is the Russian Federation which also inherited the UN seat, if the intellectual property of the projects in the USSR were of the state, they should automatically pass to the Russian Federation.

I don't want to derail this thread too much, but since it is still J-15 related I will elaborate.

Yes, Russian Federation obviously inherited most of the USSR property and political status.
As I said, from the Russian perspective, it is probably no doubt IP of UAC.
However it did not inherit ALL property of it. To use another example, the valuable Tu-160 Blackjack bomber was passed to Ukraine and later "purchased" back by Russia. Thus even Russia had considered it Ukrainian property.

Back to the J-15 now. This might give insight to Gatekeeper as well. I am not a lawyer, so take it as you may. A lot of intellectual property is a grey area even for Western countries. Why was the T-10K prototype in Ukraine? Because the Soviet Naval aviation research office was in Crimea, where they also built the aircraft carriers.

Normally in a Western country, this sort of stuff is spelled out very clearly in contracts. The employer retains all rights to the intellectual property with regards to this contract or something like that. However, I imagine that no such contract existed in the USSR. Is the Soviet naval aviation research office a subsidiary of Sukhoi? Probably not since they also were making similar modifications for Mikoyan for Mig-29K. If we can establish that the office is an independent entity, what sort of rights did they retain to the work? Basically an impossible question.

The idea of reverse engineering is too simplified in most peoples' mind. It's not like you just kind of take it apart, do some measurements, photograph everything, make some CAD files and off you go. We don't know the exact differences between Sino-Flanker and Russo-Flanker (Even between IAPO and KnAAPO, it is said that KnAAPO is better). However, it probably is kind of significant this point. Almost all the electronics would be different for one. Another would be China does not have the access to the proprietary Russian Titanium machining (Even Boeing 787 is using these parts), so it is known that some of these parts have been substituted with composites.

Furthermore, and this is the thing that really trips up Western countries' legal systems, you cannot really control someone's knowledge. A lot of these Ukrainian engineers/designers were legally hired and paid to work on the J-15. (In the software industry, they make programmers sign non-compete agreements and just hope that whatever they were working on goes out of date by the expiration). Prototype in hand or not, these guys would be familiar folding wing mechanics, structural stress analysis, any caveats experienced during development, and likely were able to help with material selection changes in the cases where they have replaced Russian-spec parts with different Chinese ones.

This topic is of some personal interest to myself because I had started to look at PLA when Su-27SK (J-11) was brand new to PLAAF. I don't think anyone on those early PLA message boards foresaw a whole family of Sino-Flankers. A huge concern at the time was that the N001 radar even back then was not really state of the art, especially since Bars PESA was sold to India. As such, you can see the amount of work put into projects like J-15.
 

sahureka

Junior Member
Registered Member
I don't want to derail this thread too much, but since it is still J-15 related I will elaborate.

Yes, Russian Federation obviously inherited most of the USSR property and political status.
As I said, from the Russian perspective, it is probably no doubt IP of UAC.
However it did not inherit ALL property of it. To use another example, the valuable Tu-160 Blackjack bomber was passed to Ukraine and later "purchased" back by Russia. Thus even Russia had considered it Ukrainian property.

Back to the J-15 now. This might give insight to Gatekeeper as well. I am not a lawyer, so take it as you may. A lot of intellectual property is a grey area even for Western countries. Why was the T-10K prototype in Ukraine? Because the Soviet Naval aviation research office was in Crimea, where they also built the aircraft carriers.

omissis

Perhaps I have explained myself wrongly, the Soviet era plans were the state's intellectual property and the drawings were archived in Moscow, any Soviet era "plans" automatically passed to the state that officially succeeded them, that is, the Russian Federation;
the military equipment of the USSR military apparatus is different and with agreements it has been divided with the nations born from the dissolution of the USSR.
Then certainly the design offices and military factories in the Soviet republics remained the property of the independent states.
In summary, all the projects carried out in the Soviet era, intellectual property is available to Moscow, even if materially at that time it was designed in offices located in Ukraine or other republics of the USSR, if then the Ukrainians sold a prototype that remained their disposal, this does not automatically grant the license to replicate it to whoever bought it.
 
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