J-10 Thread III (Closed to posting)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Quickie

Colonel
'It's a good thing the truth is totally independent of what you agree or do not agree with.'

I totally agree with that.

Look, the key to stealth is having flat surfaces and not round sloping surfaces. It's even better when there's no surfaces at all to reflect the radar (like the intake of the F-22). Now, why do you think the designers of the F-22 decide not to use the DSI intake despite its obvious advantages?
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
'It's a good thing the truth is totally independent of what you agree or do not agree with.'

I totally agree with that.

Look, the key to stealth is having flat surfaces and not round sloping surfaces. It's even better when there's no surfaces at all to reflect the radar (like the intake of the F-22). Now, why do you think the designers of the F-22 decide not to use the DSI intake despite its obvious advantages?

Because the F-22's design was finalized before they ever tested a DSI? And adding a DSI later on would mean changing the airframe and redoing the stealth characteristics of the plane, when it was already performing perfectly fine in its final form?
 

Wolverine

Banned Idiot
'It's a good thing the truth is totally independent of what you agree or do not agree with.'

I totally agree with that.

Look, the key to stealth is having flat surfaces and not round sloping surfaces. It's even better when there's no surfaces at all to reflect the radar (like the intake of the F-22). Now, why do you think the designers of the F-22 decide not to use the DSI intake despite its obvious advantages?

The round sloping surface is in a position that does not offer any significant chance of radar return. You should get a clue and actually look at how the DSI bump is shaped and positioned. You should also answer the question of why the F-35 has a DSI. As for why the F-22 didn't use the DSI, see above.
 
One of the effects of the DSI bump is to scatter radar waves in a fashion which reduces direct returns back to the radar source. A key difference between the F-22 and the J-10B lies with the inlet types. The J-10 has a chin inlet, presenting a nearly perpendicular surface to radar waves hitting the front of the aircraft. The F-22 has side intakes, which are therefore angled, thus causing radar to be scattered to the sides. If you look at nose of the F-22, what you actually see is a rather angular and flat top portion conjoined to a far more rounded bottom section. This shape is actually quite similar to the shape of the DSI bump. This was done to minimize frontal radar return. With the intake design of the J-10, a DSI design does present itself as the stealthiest option. The F-22 was designed from the beginning with stealth in mind, and all its various design features(including the inlets) work in synergy to minimize the aircraft's RCS. Just because it happens to use fixed inlets does not mean conventional fixed inlets are inherently more stealthy than DSI intakes.

As I mentioned in a previous post:
DSI bumps are very stealthy as well, as shown by the F-35. The fact that overall the F-35 is slightly less stealthy than the F-22 has nothing to do with the inlets.
 
Last edited:

Quickie

Colonel
Because the F-22's design was finalized before they ever tested a DSI? And adding a DSI later on would mean changing the airframe and redoing the stealth characteristics of the plane, when it was already performing perfectly fine in its final form?


If I'm not wrong, the research on DSI started in the early 1990s.

Don't get me wrong. The DSI intake obviously has a lot of advantages over the variable intake, like lower frontal RCS (compared to a variable intake) and weight saving.

My opinion is that the DSI intake's main function is to control inlet airflow at different speeds, and not to directly improve stealth by reducing radar reflection. (Woudn't having nothing in the way of the radar wave be the best option? - assuming no direct line of sight to the engine)

The fact is it's not possible to control inlet airflow without the control surfaces (of either the DSI or the variable intake) that would contribute to radar reflections, however tolerable it may be in most scan angle and operational circumstances by careful design of the DSI inlet with stealth in mind. On the other hand, the F-22 is able to handle this inlet flow problem differently.
 
Last edited:

latenlazy

Brigadier
If I'm not wrong, the research on DSI started in the early 1990s.
The airframe of the F-22 was designed in the 80s and design selection for the ATF was made in 91. You can't just tack on some new research you made in the mid 90s when the aircraft is already beginning production, particularly for a stealth design where particular shaping is crucial to meeting performance requirements.


Don't get me wrong. The DSI intake obviously has a lot of advantages over the variable intake, like lower frontal RCS (compared to a variable intake) and weight saving.

My opinion is that the DSI intake's main function is to control inlet airflow at different speeds, and not to directly improve stealth but reducing radar reflection. (Woudn't having nothing in the way of the radar wave be the best option? - assuming no direct line of sight to the engine)
Why can't a DSI be implemented for more than one reason? Besides, it makes no sense to implement it primarily or solely for controlling inlet airflow when you already have a variable intake that does that job just fine. The only reason to switch to a DSI would be if it offers additional benefits. In addition there is no such thing as "nothing" in front of the radar wave. Eventually that radar will hit something, more specifically the interior of the inlet, and maybe even the engine fan itself. If I'm not wrong, when the radar does it will bounce off the interior surfaces, making it much harder to control the radar rellection (unless you have reentrant shaped structures inside). Think of it this way, does your voice echo more inside or outside a box (even if that box is s-shaped :p)?

The fact is it's not possible to control inlet airflow without the control surfaces (of either the DSI or the variable intake) that would contribute to radar reflections, however tolerable it may be in most scan angle and operational circumstances by careful design of the DSI inlet with stealth in mind. On the other hand, the F-22 is able to handle this inlet flow problem differently.

There is no such thing as a surface that does not add to radar reflection. Radar reflects on all surfaces (even to a degree on RAM I think). It's more about reflecting the radar in a way that guarantees it doesn't come back to the source, and S-shaped inlets are one way to control for this. However, it's less relevant what additional surfaces you have as much as how you've oriented and shaped those surfaces in relation to the overall structure to control the direction in which the radar bounces off on, so a DSI can either help or hurt a plane's stealth characteristics depending on how its shaped and oriented (that is to say type of inlet has nothing to do with how stealthy a plane is, but the design of the inlet does). However, one main benefit the DSI offers over a variable intake is that there are no moving parts, so the geometry of your plane isn't changing, and so you're guaranteed to have a certain unchanging radar characteristic (think of how when weapons bays open stealth can be compromised).

How the F-22 handles radar reflection probably has to do with how the inlets are structured internally. It's also unclear how the F-22 guarantees performance at higher speeds without some method of controlling the airflow at different speeds, but that probably has a lot to do with engine design as much as it has to do with inlet design. Nonetheless, the type of intake has nothing to do with how well stealth can be achieved. It's about how the intakes are placed and shaped. Just because the F-22 can achieve high performance and stealth with a fixed inlet does not mean that other designs can't reach or exceed the same level of stealth and performance.
 
Last edited:

Chaminuka

Junior Member
Look, the key to stealth is having flat surfaces and not round sloping surfaces.

I believe the B-2 approach stealth by using rounded surfaces as opposed to the flat/straight surfaces of the F-117. I understand the B-2 is more complex as it is not easy to get the geometry of those curved surfaces right both from design perspective and in manufacturing. Needed computer power. Go to page 28 of this book:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
where they discuss the B-2 approach vs the F-117.
 
Last edited:

Quickie

Colonel
..... In addition there is no such thing as "nothing" in front of the radar wave. Eventually that radar will hit something, more specifically the interior of the inlet, and maybe even the engine fan itself. If I'm not wrong, when the radar does it will bounce off the interior surfaces, making it much harder to control the radar rellection (unless you have reentrant shaped structures inside). Think of it this way, does your voice echo more inside or outside a box (even if that box is s-shaped :p)?

Then, what's the use of the S-shaped inlet duct? Its purpose is to get the jet engine away from the line of sight through the air intake. i.e. to let the radar waves bypass the jet engine completely.

...There is no such thing as a surface that does not add to radar reflection.

Sorry, I don't think I made such a claim in anyway.


I believe the B-2 approach stealth by using rounded surfaces as opposed to the flat/straight surfaces of the F-117. I understand the B-2 is more complex as it is not easy to get the geometry of those curved surfaces right both from design perspective and in manufacturing. Needed computer power. Go to page 28 of this book:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
where they discuss the B-2 approach vs the F-117.

Not really rounded surfaces but very large curve surfaces.
 

Wolverine

Banned Idiot
not to directly improve stealth but reducing radar reflection.
This statement makes no sense at all. Reducing radar reflection IS improving stealth. You're now twisting definitions so you don't have to admit that a DSI can be stealthy. Either that or I would have to question whether you even understand the concept of stealth. The fact is that a flat surface that reflects radar waves away from the emitter source is just as stealthy as a curved surface that reflects radar waves away from the emitter.
 

Chaminuka

Junior Member
Not really rounded surfaces but very large curve surfaces.

What is the difference between a rounded surface and a curved surface?

If I'm not wrong, when the radar does it will bounce off the interior surfaces, making it much harder to control the radar rellection (unless you have reentrant shaped structures inside). Think of it this way, does your voice echo more inside or outside a box (even if that box is s-shaped :p)?

I think you are correct. In the book whose link I posted earlier, the point "hit home" when she used the example of how cat's eyes reflect light - almost intensifying it. ... ... She als mentioned how, because of the many mechanism of reflection, you end up with very large RCSs on aircraft that do not have the much surface area to start with.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top