J-10 Thread III (Closed to posting)

[FriedRiceNSpice]

If Pakistan gets block52 with AMRAAM, HMS and all that fancy stuff

Without AESA, a F-16 is not any better than a J-10A with HMS and SD-10/PL-12. The two planes are equal at the least, and the J-10A would be offered at a significantly lower cost. Also the spare parts are easier to acquire for the J-10A and you run no risk of an arms embargo. However, in actuality the PAF would benefit more from having both fighters than one or the other. The J-10 would outperform the F-16 at high speed and altitude, but the F-16 has unparalleled performance at lower speeds and altitudes. Thus, each aircraft would have it's distinct advantages depending on the role it is intended to fill.

One thing that I can't get out of my mind is incorporation of DSI on the J-10B. The J-10A is said to hold the speed record for the PLAAF. To achieve speeds in excess of Mach 2, most aircraft need to have variable inlets. That is why the F-16 cannot break Mach 2, since it has fixxed inlets. A big advantage of DSI is increased performance at lower supersonic speeds, but I wonder if top speed or higher supersonic performance is sacrificed as a result. On the F-16, DSI did allow the aircraft to achieve a maximum speed of Mach 2.0, a marginal improvement over the regular F-16.

 

[taimikhan]

Pakistan started JF17 thanks to soft loans from China. They are starting up a few JF17 squadrons (december one and next year another). The first F16's block52 will enter next june so the end of 2010 you will have 17 delivered. That is a big project even for Pakistan. Besides that Il78 next year (4), Erieye starting in october and 3 next year. Even if those J10A's were given gratis then they would have no chance to be absorbed anytime soon. That is why there is an introduction planned in 2014/15 for the main reason that we cannot financially throw out cash in this year and wait another 5...

What does strike me is that again a remark is made that PLAAF is not going for lss then J10B while they dump J10A's to Pakistan. Dream on. I think Pakistan asks higher standards then China delivers. ZK10 needs to improved. JF17 was tested and they had to make corrections all the way (Pakistan raised the specifications), J10 is nice but they need to add Pakistani wishes. Just read so once a while Airforcemonthly... There are enough interviews of ACM telling the reality. So I do not say that it is controlled from Pakistani side but the repeating by many mebers (even seniors) that lower quality is dumped to Pakistan is never proven. Ask yourself... If Pakistan gets block52 with AMRAAM, HMS and all that fancy stuff... Would they still go for J10A while PLAAF is going for a J10B? Pakistan has nothing to gain from extra J10 exports. They will not take risks at the moment if they are busy with block2 JF17 and another high tech plane. Reading latest book on PAF (Alan Warnes) it clearly says that China has to show the improvements again after the first 50 JF17's... They took the MB ejection seat as an example... Though China builded their own version... Pak bought MB... And they will give another chance after the first 50. Same goes for almost everything.

Fully agreed, plus for chinese fighter a/c export success chances, sale to PAF of quality planes is compulsory, otherwise other nations interested in buying these latest jets won't go for it. Due to PAF tough requirements the JF-17 has come to this advanced level, and just see the interest it has generated from expected buyers, so if a inferior J-10 is given to PAF do you think air forces of other nations gonna think about buying it.
Buying of chinese hi-tech equipment will give a lot of boost to the chances of these weapon systems being bought by other nations. We have already proved that Chinese weapon systems are worth a try and dependable.

 

[latenlazy]

What does strike me is that again a remark is made that PLAAF is not going for lss then J10B while they dump J10A's to Pakistan. Dream on. I think Pakistan asks higher standards then China delivers. ZK10 needs to improved. JF17 was tested and they had to make corrections all the way (Pakistan raised the specifications), J10 is nice but they need to add Pakistani wishes. Just read so once a while Airforcemonthly... There are enough interviews of ACM telling the reality. So I do not say that it is controlled from Pakistani side but the repeating by many mebers (even seniors) that lower quality is dumped to Pakistan is never proven. Ask yourself... If Pakistan gets block52 with AMRAAM, HMS and all that fancy stuff... Would they still go for J10A while PLAAF is going for a J10B? Pakistan has nothing to gain from extra J10 exports. They will not take risks at the moment if they are busy with block2 JF17 and another high tech plane. Reading latest book on PAF (Alan Warnes) it clearly says that China has to show the improvements again after the first 50 JF17's... They took the MB ejection seat as an example... Though China builded their own version... Pak bought MB... And they will give another chance after the first 50. Same goes for almost everything.

It's not just about what Pakistan's standards are. It's also about how much China needs to sell Pakistan planes versus how much Pakistan needs to buy planes from China. Remember a major selling point is that J-10As are cheaper than the alternative. Pakistan may refuse to make a deal if China low balls standards, but I really wonder how much leverage they have over China in getting them to sell them the newer better stuff, especially when the old stuff is somewhat competitive to the alternative.

 

[plawolf]

Munir:

Its not just an opinion, its national security policy, its fact. The PLA will never authorize the export of anything superior to what they themselves have available. To do otherwise would be extremely stupid.

The PAF has been seriously interested in the J10 for years and the answer from Beijing has always been, 'no sale'. The only reason the J10A is an option at all is because the J10B is in such an advanced stage of development.

The J10 offered to Pakistan may not be the basic J10A that the PLAAF currently operates, and may have some bells and whistles like IRST and the new self defense suit thrown in, but it won't be a J10B. The J10B lines are going to be booked full of PLAAF orders for years to come, and if the PAF wants J10s, it will be the A model or an upgraded A model.

And I would not get so high and mighty to sneer at the J10A if I were you. The airframe itself is almost certainly going to be a superior AA platform then the block 52, and may even outperform the J10B is certain areas like high supersonic speeds as FriedRice has alluded to. If CAC allows 3rd party radar and avionics, the J10 will be hands down the best AA platform the PAF will have in the foreseeable future. Even with 'just' Chinese radar and avionics, its probably still going to be a close match for the blk52 at the very least, and cost considerable less even with upgrades.

 

[Baibar of Jalat]

Why argue the same points over and over again, whether j 10b is going to PAF? Its a debate no one can win at the moment.

 

[tphuang]

It's simple, when we see what they offer to PAF, we will know. The only thing I can say is that the version offered for export is not going to be the same as the one used domestically (as seen with F-8IIM and FBC-1).

As for why not more J-10As were produced, it's mainly because they didn't have AL-31FNs due to the entire IL-76 fiasco. WS-10A had more problems than previously thought, so they couldn't continue. So basically after more than 1 year of hiatus, J-10A production has restarted.

 

[Quickie]

Another problem is that a DSI inlet is probably less stealthy than a conventional inlet. (Although not by very much, I guess.) How do you weigh the advantages and disadvantages of having a DSI inlet?

 

[latenlazy]

Another problem is that a DSI inlet is probably less stealthy than a conventional inlet. How do you weigh the advantages and disadvantages of having a DSI inlet?

I thought the DSI was more stealthy?

 

[FriedRiceNSpice]

How do you weigh the advantages and disadvantages of having a DSI inlet?

No, DSI is far more stealthy. Variable-airflow inlets are the least stealthy of inlets. The Flanker series offer an extreme example. One of the issues the J-11B addressed was covering up the movable wedges that direct airflow, thus reducing the aircraft's RCS. The use of DSI intakes offers reductions in aircraft weight, ease of maintenance, lower complexity, and reduced RCS. It can also improve performance at lower airspeeds. However, at higher speeds, you need variable inlets tend to provide the engines with optimal airflow.

 

[Quickie]

Okay, I should've said a DSI inlet is less stealthy than a conventional inlet if the problem of radar reflection from the air-flow control surfaces in the inlet, can be solved like the way they have done it with the F-22 conventional inlet.