J-10 Thread III (Closed to posting)

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duskylim

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Dear Sirs:

The pictures of the J-10s or the F-22s merely confirm that when you need regular access to certain components, for maintenance, replacement, upgrade or testing, you are going to need the cover (in this case obviously the skin of the aircraft) to be removable.

And as you can see, the choice of designers from various countries is almost universal, that is, screwed-on panels that can be taken off and replaced or hinged to swing away.

Every aircraft has these screwed-on panels and there's no getting away from them.

The actual load-bearing structure of the aircraft (the airframe) mainly consists of longitudinal and transverse strength members to which those external panels attach to.

Even if the skin (or certain parts of the structural members) is/are made of radar-absorbing/composite materials the main members are most certainly made of metal - there is just no replacing it when rugged, brute strength is necessary.

Show me an aircraft that doesn't use metal in the landing gear and struts, and then look underneath at the structure which the landing gear attaches to - all metal.

The finish of the F-22 as well as the flush fitting of its rivets point to the care and attention which must be paid if one desires 'low-observable' characteristics.

The fit and finish of the J-10 remind me of a MiG-29 or early Su-27, several of which visited the Philippines a long time ago (early 1990's). There was also an Su-25, and An-32 and a An-124.

The Soviets (and in particular Frontal Aviation) made their aircraft as simple and rugged as possible, as well as maintainable by pretty much anybody.

Believe me - I should know, when they visited us here it was high summer with 90+ deg F heat. I got the Deputy Chief Designer of Sukhoi - Konstantin Marbashev to sign my Air Forces Magazine with his picture in it.

There were also several brutes who looked like they just escaped from the Gulag who were apparently the aircraft mechanics.

For the price of several cases of the local beer and some barbecue, they let my friends and I walk right up to all the aircraft and touch almost everything! Ha ha ha!

They ate and drank beer right underneath the some of the aircraft!

To refuel the Sukhoi (an Su-27UB), a mechanic walked onto its back and filled it up, but the pilot complained - he wanted it really full - so the guy walks (in dirty sneakers) across the wing and stands on the missile launch rail, and then - I shit you not! - he jumps up and down till the aircraft's fuel tank belches out air and then goes back and fills it to the brim!

Let me tell you - it was a joy to watch.

The difference between the J-10 and F-22 is generational, China has reached roughly the same stage of Western aircraft of the 1980's in its fit and finish, though not necessarily in other components.

Still the J-10 is no mean achievement, probably having similar performance to late-model F-16's. What will really be interesting is the NEXT generation of Chinese fighter aircraft.

But to judge the performance of an aircraft, its engines, radar and avionics solely on its external finish, is in my opinion (if you will forgive the pun) - SUPERFICIAL.

Best Regards,

Dusky Lim
 

Saeed Khan

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Dear Sirs:

The pictures of the J-10s or the F-22s merely confirm that when you need regular access to certain components, for maintenance, replacement, upgrade or testing, you are going to need the cover (in this case obviously the skin of the aircraft) to be removable.

And as you can see, the choice of designers from various countries is almost universal, that is, screwed-on panels that can be taken off and replaced or hinged to swing away.

Every aircraft has these screwed-on panels and there's no getting away from them. ...

Interesting post! :) The J-10 'access panels' look exactly like those of F-16. It is something quite desirable. Also, placement of each internal component has to be such that it is maintenance friendly.

I do know some recently designed planes that are a maintenance nightmare due to lack of such considerations. Each unit of the design team simply added a component without any consideration of the overall design, proper documentation or maintenance!

This can make all the difference during emergencies. Poorly designed planes will take longer to maintain and will remain mostly grounded compared to properly designed planes like F-16, etc.
 

Quickie

Colonel
I suspect some of the pictures in the link provided by Adeptitus are actually taken from a display model of J-10, outside a museum or some other building. Someone was probably in the mode for bashing, and the pictures made good ammunition.

The way the J-10 looks has more to do with it construction methods of using many small panels with the accompanying not-so-nice-looking rivets as opposed to fewer but bigger panels. The J-10 designers obviously see the advantages of doing so, notwithstanding the fact that this would result in a not-so-sleek-looking construction. I don't see this as a problem if such construction methods constribute to the aircraft's performance and toughness.
 

FugitiveVisions

Junior Member
24 hardened shelters can be seen from the airfield at Shantou, where pictures emerged last year of J10s supposedly parked at the location. The problem is, existing J10 units are known to have 28 hangers/28 planes. So could this be a J11/JH7 deployment?

Also, Sean O'Connor has also spotted a HQ9 unit next to several of the hangers at this location. Something up?
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
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another new picture of J-10B, numbered 1031.
 

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duskylim

Junior Member
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Just a thought.

Could it be that the latest hiatus we are seeing in the procurement of more J-10's is not supply driven but customer (i.e. the PLAAF) driven?

That is, rather than spend money now for aircraft that are rapidly going to be obsolete, the PLAAF decided to postpone procurement until the J-10B becomes operational?

If this is indeed the case than we have seen the last of the J-10A's.

And all new J-10 equipped PLAAF regiments will be J-10B regiments.

What do you guys think?
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
Possible, can't really tell. When was the last time a new j10a squadron stood up? How long of a hiatus are we talking about here? Also, can't really tell when J10b might be ready for full rate production. A version took 5 years but, naturally, B is much smaller in scope to test. Though, personally, another year seems likely.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Could be many factors combined, things like:

-Tensions between the Taiwan strait easing considerably to the point where the PRC has offered to send in PLA helos to help with the Typhoon rescue operation in Taiwan.

- A substantial J10A and J11 fleet is operational, so the PLAAF should be able to at least hold its own in the vast majority of potential conflict scenarios, so there is less of an urgent need for new J10 regiments compared to just a few years ago.

What more, the biggest limiting factor to standing up new squadrons is the human factor, where pilots and ground crew need time to get up to speed with their new kit. With a large existing J10A fleet, this could be less of a problem as one squadron of planes could be used to train at least two squadrons' worth of pilots and ground crew.

It would be interesting to find out the production rate of J10S.

If the PLAAF is holding back orders of J10A as they wait for the J10B, a logical move would be to order J10S instead to keep the lines running and also as an investment in the future since those airframes would be of great use in training new pilots, and could also be upgraded for ground attack if the ability does not already come as standard.

Another possibility would be for the PLA to give the green light for CAC to export J10As to Pakistan if there is spare capacity because the PLAAF would rather wait for the J10B.

So, IMHO, if we start seeing large increases in J10S numbers or if Pakistan makes an order for J10As, then that would be a strong indication that the PLAAF has suspended J10 purchases until the J10B is ready.
 

Munir

Banned Idiot
Pakistan started JF17 thanks to soft loans from China. They are starting up a few JF17 squadrons (december one and next year another). The first F16's block52 will enter next june so the end of 2010 you will have 17 delivered. That is a big project even for Pakistan. Besides that Il78 next year (4), Erieye starting in october and 3 next year. Even if those J10A's were given gratis then they would have no chance to be absorbed anytime soon. That is why there is an introduction planned in 2014/15 for the main reason that we cannot financially throw out cash in this year and wait another 5...

What does strike me is that again a remark is made that PLAAF is not going for lss then J10B while they dump J10A's to Pakistan. Dream on. I think Pakistan asks higher standards then China delivers. ZK10 needs to improved. JF17 was tested and they had to make corrections all the way (Pakistan raised the specifications), J10 is nice but they need to add Pakistani wishes. Just read so once a while Airforcemonthly... There are enough interviews of ACM telling the reality. So I do not say that it is controlled from Pakistani side but the repeating by many mebers (even seniors) that lower quality is dumped to Pakistan is never proven. Ask yourself... If Pakistan gets block52 with AMRAAM, HMS and all that fancy stuff... Would they still go for J10A while PLAAF is going for a J10B? Pakistan has nothing to gain from extra J10 exports. They will not take risks at the moment if they are busy with block2 JF17 and another high tech plane. Reading latest book on PAF (Alan Warnes) it clearly says that China has to show the improvements again after the first 50 JF17's... They took the MB ejection seat as an example... Though China builded their own version... Pak bought MB... And they will give another chance after the first 50. Same goes for almost everything.
 
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