asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
Plenty of J10B kicking around can't wait to see first Regiment stand up soon
J-10 Thread III (Closed to posting)
- Thread starter crobato
- Start date
- Status
Dizasta1
Senior Member
Asif, I don't quite follow the reasoning behind this part of your post.
J-10B is an advance Gen-4+ combat aircraft and is strategically the precise platform that Pakistan Air Force requires in it's fighter-fleet composition. And your reasoning that it's advance technology, indicates that Pakistan Air Force is incapable of absorbing such advance-tech combat platform.
Such reasoning contradicts Pakistan Air Force's recent credentials in inducting new combat platforms. Where, since 2009 Pakistan Air Force inducted Saab Erieye AEWs. This was a new platform, new technology that was absorbed by Pakistan Air Force successfully and that too, which it had no history of operating. Another example is the IL-76 Midas, which Pakistan Air Force inducted and never had such a capability prior to that. Even the ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle AWACS, is a platform which is a first for Pakistan Air Force and has been inducted and it's technology absorbed.
Since 2007, Pakistan Air Force has embarked upon a comprehensive modernization program and has up to now inducted various new platforms, of capabilities which are new to the Pakistan Air Force, operationally.
So to say that the platform is too advance for Pakistan Air Force to absorb, is an unfair remark.
Since 2010, Pakistan Air Force has been operating F-16 C/D Block-52s, which are close to in terms of capability to the J-10Bs. So I wouldn't be so sure about Pakistan Air Force not being able to cope with J-10B.
timepass
Brigadier
Pakistan - PAF....
timepass
Brigadier
I agree Dizasta...
Further, PAF signed for 36 FC20s (J10Bs) in 2006/7 (correct me if I am wrong on dates), so PAF is well prepared for what is coming.
Nice ... Could it be that they are simply from a different production line ??
Deino
we just have to wait a while and see! They used to have 2 J-10 assembly lines. The current rather slow production rate would indicate that it's operating at medium capacity.
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
I think you misunderstood my post when I say can't induct because it's advanced is of not because they can't do it but because they can't at this point and time it will require a lot of investing in time and effort, right now PAF is absorbing F16 MLU, F16 C/D Block 52+, JF-17 and soon JF-17 Block II plus new doctrines with tankers and AWACS where are we going to get the pilots the training the ground crews the whole new infrastructure for a whole new J10B
PAC chief state around 3 years ago that PAC is working through Ramadhan and even on Eid to get new manuals and operating procedures written for the new JF-17 coming online all leave was cancelled and there was becoming a back log this was when they built like 16 units in 2010 too fast too quick
PAF is stretched with getting everything integrated right now so any news on J10B is very unlikely
India is not going to get Rafale till 2018 or later there is no urgent need to counter it until then so there is plenty of time
Btw the J10B is a beautiful aircraft
Zahid
Junior Member
Relevant excerpt from an interview with Air Commodore (R) Kaiser Tufail. This is the same guy to eloquently called F7G "a poor man's F-16" after evaluating it for PAF induction in '90s.
"Q9: Do F-16s and JF-17s fulfill nation’s high altitude war fighting requirements and if or not there is a need for a canard fighter like the Chengdu J-10B for such a role?
The Canards have nothing to do with high altitude performance. They are normally used as control surfaces in modern delta winged aircraft (Rafale, Eurofighter, Gripen, Raptor), which would otherwise suffer from drag rise during maneuvering flight. The Mirage-III and other conventional aircraft (those without aft centre of gravity and fly-by-wire) whose design does not permit aft CG and cannot utilise canards as control surfaces, suffer from immense drag rise during manoeuvering. As for JF-17 and F-16, both have enough thrust-to-weight ratio and low supersonic drag, to be able to perform at high altitudes without any problem. The F-16C/D is superior to the J-10, except for low speed maneuvering, which isn't much fun these days when high-G maneuvering missiles can swat such low-energy objects with great ease. "
The interview was conducted by @Aeronaut at PDF and posted here:
"Q9: Do F-16s and JF-17s fulfill nation’s high altitude war fighting requirements and if or not there is a need for a canard fighter like the Chengdu J-10B for such a role?
The Canards have nothing to do with high altitude performance. They are normally used as control surfaces in modern delta winged aircraft (Rafale, Eurofighter, Gripen, Raptor), which would otherwise suffer from drag rise during maneuvering flight. The Mirage-III and other conventional aircraft (those without aft centre of gravity and fly-by-wire) whose design does not permit aft CG and cannot utilise canards as control surfaces, suffer from immense drag rise during manoeuvering. As for JF-17 and F-16, both have enough thrust-to-weight ratio and low supersonic drag, to be able to perform at high altitudes without any problem. The F-16C/D is superior to the J-10, except for low speed maneuvering, which isn't much fun these days when high-G maneuvering missiles can swat such low-energy objects with great ease. "
The interview was conducted by @Aeronaut at PDF and posted here:
Aeronaut
New Member
Until a Chinese engine matures and provides desired performance exports to PAF are unlikely. There are a few things that must be noted.
- PAF has two induction programs at hand, the JF-17 and the new F-16 Block-52+/MLU-MIII
- PAF as we speak doesn't have surplus budget anymore for further acquisitions of new aircrafts
- PAF just bought a squadron of F-16 MLU from Jordan and more F-16s are likely as being a highly experianced F-16 user it is far easier and cheaper for PAF to deploy those machines in combat radiness than newer platforms.
- Pakistan's economy is recovering but not growing at the same pace as 2005-06.
- PAF has shifted its focus towards Unmanned platforms for aiding COIN operations which will reduce the dependance on manned aircraft for some roles.
- In my opinion PAF will not buy a new platform till 2025, will wait for J-31 or any other jet of that league to mature and then acquire it to face off with the PAK-FA threat from India.
- Acquisition of systems of HQ-9/18 - KS-1A/B area denial SAMs is more likely in the mid term to shore up area denial capabilities.
Dizasta1
Senior Member
All great points, making for some good debate!
It is a relief to know that Pakistan Air Force is moving ahead with unmanned air-combat systems. This will not only save them from deploying F-16s, JF-17s and other fighters in the fleet. But also save Pakistan Air Force plenty of money. A lot goes into deploying fighter-jets, which includes flight-hours, airframe-life, fighter-pilots, maintenance, fuel-costs and etc. Such combat-platforms as fighter-jets, are not designed for small targets, dispersed enemy and etc. Today, terrorism has adapted itself to it's adversary's capability. Knowing well that force in large numbers, concentrated in one area, would easily be wiped by a modern state military. Hence the guerilla-warfare tactics and thus marginalising the state's ability to effectively respond to the threat of terrorism.
I look forward to seeing Pakistan Air Force induct capable unmanned air-combat platforms which have the capability detect the enemy and engage it day/night, all-whether and higher flight-endurance.
With respect to the F-16s. The aircraft is no doubt a very capable one with a proven track record. However, if you view the historical record of Pakistan Air Force, vis-a-vis F-16. I can say with certainty, that it is an aircraft which would be nice to have, provided America was a true ally of Pakistan and not one of convenience. The F-16s do enhance Pakistan Air Force's ability to conduct Air-Superiority and Air-Support missions. However, after experiencing two decades of sanctions and clinging on to the precious aircraft with dear life, due to lack of spares. I would find it irrational on part of Pakistan Air Force, to pursue an expansion of the F-16 fleet. Strategically, it's not a smart move to do so, unless of course, the balance of the fighter-jet fleet out-weighs the F-16's fleet with aircraft which are non-American.
If Pakistan Air Force envisages a fighter fleet of 550+ aircraft. Then in such a case, 70-90 F-16s would be acceptable number to field. Which means, that the remaining fleet of Pakistan Air Force, would most likely be non-American aircraft. In the past three decades we have all witness, Pakistan Air Force has for the most part, opted to go the Chinese way. And since the JF-17 Thunder fleet is projected to be numbering around 200-250. That leaves them with at least another 90-120 aircraft to fill the void. Post 2002, Pakistan Air Force did figure in a reduction in the number of fighter-jet types it would operate. Pre-2002, they were operating 4 fighter types, which included F-16s, F-7Ps/PGs, A-5Cs and Mirage IIIs/Vs. And keeping this in mind, I doubt that Pakistan Air Force is looking to operate just two types of fighter-jets in the future.
In this context, it is more likely that the third fighter type, would be the J-10Bs. And since it is mentioned in Alan Warne's book "Pakistan Air Force - A New Dawn" (by the former ACM of PAF) that there would be a phased retirement of the Mirages and F-7s. It indicates that there would be a third fighter type, other than JF-17s and F-16s. Even on a fighter for fighter replacement, the JF-17 Thunder will not replace the entire fleet of more than 300 Mirages and F-7s. The F-16s have never been percieved as a replacement of F-7s or Mirages, rather back in the 80s & 90s, Pakistan Air Force was looking to field 100+ F-16s for it's high-end fighter-jet fleet.
As for the budgetary constraints .... Yes, Pakistan Air Force would most likely pursue a gradual restructuring of it's fleet. Which would lead to the conclusion that between 2009-2017, programs such as the JF-17s, F-16s, ZDK-03s, IL-76s and Erieyes would be the focus of attention for Pakistan Air Force. However, it wouldn't be unrealistic to speculate, that post-2017, an induction progam for a third fighter type, would follow. And that could very likely be the J-10Bs! Which gives them another 3 to 4 years before they would have to financially committ themselves to procuring, inducting and having the aircraft ready for active duty. And is a pretty conservative estimate, considering the current geo-political climate in and around Pakistan. In fact, it's even possible, that depending on the health of Pakistan's economy, that we wouldn't see the J-10Bs in Pakistan Air Force, before 2018/19.
We will have to wait and observe how matters pan out, both with Pakistan Air Force and J-10B.
Last edited:
- Status