J-10 Thread III (Closed to posting)

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asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
No air force in the world has the luxuary to build aircraft for one specific role

J10 is a new airframe and has much scope for improvement, F16 E/F Desert Falcons are amongst the best aircraft in the world UAE operates them that's how far the F16 has come

The improvement of J10B over J10A is huge, it shows China has plans for this unit, there is no question they could build a J10C in the future

Even F22 Raptor has been configured for ground attack, F35C is flying but they still built the Super Hornet, this is how it works you use the full spectrum of aviation assets and capabilitys not just isolate some and switch off others
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
The question basically comes down to, whether we think it's plausible for PLAAF to fill its future J-7 (and possibly Q-5) ranks with only J-10As and J-10Bs.

It is actually very simple. PLAAF will do like any other air force in the world :

1. Planes would not be replaced on 1 to 1 basis . You will have less but more capable planes .

2. Lot of older planes will be replaced with UCAVs . This goes especially for Q-5 units .

3. J-10 (A & B) will gradually replace remaining J-7s in other non-elite regiments . In turn , some of current J-10 units will convert to other types (maybe J-20) in future .
 

franco-russe

Senior Member
Can someone refresh my memory how many J10A Regiments is there? Is it 7 for PLAAF and 1 for PLANAF

They have been produced in how many batches 7?

Sure, someone can:

If those at the Test and Training Base are counted as a regiment, as I now think they should, there are 11 J-10 regiments (brigades):

1) Flight Test and Training Base 170 Air Brigade Gucheng

2) 44 Fighter Division 131 Regiment Luliang

3) 3 Figher Division 8 Regiment Changxing

4) 2 Fighter Division 5 Regiment Guilin

5) 1 Fighter Division 2 Regiment Chifeng

6) 24 Fighter Division 72 Regiment Yangcun

7) 9 Fighter Division 26 Regiment Huiyang

8) 4 Naval Aviation Division 12 Regiment Feidong

9) 15 Fighter/Attack Division 43 Regiment Huairen

10) 12 Fighter Division 34 Regiment Qihe

11) Nanning Base 124 Air Brigade Tianyang

Lots 01-03 were each of 24 planes, Lots 04-07 each of 40 planes.

In addition, 60 J-10S

A lot more detail on production and deployment is found in the wonderful summary that A. Man posted 4 January as post # 3852.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Well firstly, I said I think the J10B will be the final major modification of the J10. I never said that CAC and the PLAAF will stop improving on their existing planes and upgrading them throughout their service lives. But those will be incremental upgrades rather than a revolutionary leap like the J10B was compared to the J10A.

As for dedicated vs multi role, as a general rule, I never accept "well everyone else does it" as a valid excuse for why I should also do something.

The vast majority of air forces people tend to include in the proverbial 'everyone else' in this case are western NATO air forces, which for all intents and purposes could be counted as a single case since they all follow broadly similar general philosophies.

Furthermore, all those NATO air forces were built with the expectation that they would be fighting either significantly weaker opponents (Libya), and/or they would be fighting as part of a US led coalition. In both cases, establishing air superiority would never have been an issue.

None of that applies to China, and indeed, when you are building your military with the expectation of having to fight against the world's only military superpower, is it any wonder you come up with significantly different conclusions to those who built their forces expecting to fight alongside the US?

On top of that, there is the vastly different strategic role and position China finds itself compared to the US.

America is an offensive global force who never realistically expects to have to fight over their own soil. When America goes to war, they go to war far from home usually without deploying ground forces, so pretty much all their offensive firepower has to come from the sea or the air. That is why its important for every fighter to be able to engage ground targets.

China is still a locally defensive power, and if China does to war, it will be fighting mainly over its own territory, or extremely close to it.

In a primarily defensive war over Chinese territorial, what does multirole capability add to the PLA? I am, of course ruling out the scenario of a foreign invasion of the Chinese mainland as I don't think anyone has the capability to seriously contempt it, never mind hope to be able to pull it off.

Even in a war in China's near abroad, just where would the PLA realistically be fighting that would require it to have a full multirole fighter fleet as its primary offensive means? Against any of China's land locked neighbours, the PLA will be bringing the big guns and delivering the hammer blows. All of China's maritime neighbours are either too far away for land based fighters to be of much use, and/or are US allies and the PLAAF would need to defeat the USAF/USN in addition to their own national air forces before they can even think about engaging ground targets on a large scale.

Even in a Taiwan scenario multirole fighters would be of little use since the PLAAF will not have the luxury to systematically bomb the defences to dust before sending in the grunts. Any Chinese invasion of Taiwan would involve an overwhelming missile strike by cruise and ballistic missiles followed by a massive amphibious invasion as soon as the PLAAF achieves air superiority and clears the landing sites, after which the PLA would, again be delivering the primary hammer blow. At that point, the PLAAF would probably have to gear up ready to fight off a US military intervention rather than help the ground pounders take the island.

Multirole might be nice and all fashionable, but its not really all that important for the PLAAF at present or in the near future.
 

xiabonan

Junior Member
Well firstly, I said I think the J10B will be the final major modification of the J10. I never said that CAC and the PLAAF will stop improving on their existing planes and upgrading them throughout their service lives. But those will be incremental upgrades rather than a revolutionary leap like the J10B was compared to the J10A.

As for dedicated vs multi role, as a general rule, I never accept "well everyone else does it" as a valid excuse for why I should also do something.

The vast majority of air forces people tend to include in the proverbial 'everyone else' in this case are western NATO air forces, which for all intents and purposes could be counted as a single case since they all follow broadly similar general philosophies.

Furthermore, all those NATO air forces were built with the expectation that they would be fighting either significantly weaker opponents (Libya), and/or they would be fighting as part of a US led coalition. In both cases, establishing air superiority would never have been an issue.

None of that applies to China, and indeed, when you are building your military with the expectation of having to fight against the world's only military superpower, is it any wonder you come up with significantly different conclusions to those who built their forces expecting to fight alongside the US?

On top of that, there is the vastly different strategic role and position China finds itself compared to the US.

America is an offensive global force who never realistically expects to have to fight over their own soil. When America goes to war, they go to war far from home usually without deploying ground forces, so pretty much all their offensive firepower has to come from the sea or the air. That is why its important for every fighter to be able to engage ground targets.

China is still a locally defensive power, and if China does to war, it will be fighting mainly over its own territory, or extremely close to it.

In a primarily defensive war over Chinese territorial, what does multirole capability add to the PLA? I am, of course ruling out the scenario of a foreign invasion of the Chinese mainland as I don't think anyone has the capability to seriously contempt it, never mind hope to be able to pull it off.

Even in a war in China's near abroad, just where would the PLA realistically be fighting that would require it to have a full multirole fighter fleet as its primary offensive means? Against any of China's land locked neighbours, the PLA will be bringing the big guns and delivering the hammer blows. All of China's maritime neighbours are either too far away for land based fighters to be of much use, and/or are US allies and the PLAAF would need to defeat the USAF/USN in addition to their own national air forces before they can even think about engaging ground targets on a large scale.

Even in a Taiwan scenario multirole fighters would be of little use since the PLAAF will not have the luxury to systematically bomb the defences to dust before sending in the grunts. Any Chinese invasion of Taiwan would involve an overwhelming missile strike by cruise and ballistic missiles followed by a massive amphibious invasion as soon as the PLAAF achieves air superiority and clears the landing sites, after which the PLA would, again be delivering the primary hammer blow. At that point, the PLAAF would probably have to gear up ready to fight off a US military intervention rather than help the ground pounders take the island.

Multirole might be nice and all fashionable, but its not really all that important for the PLAAF at present or in the near future.

I really like your analysis and I agree with most part of it.

I would like to add on a bit, as well. You seemed to have forgotten about China's missiles. I believe that if China wants to attack any important land target, let's say the airport, air-command centre, railways, roads, and etc, land based ballistic and cruise missiles would be a better option for the PLA than to use aircrafts. This is just at the beginning of the war of course, once China has gained control of the air with the help of those missile to strike out important targets, planes like the JH7As and Su30MKK would still prove to be good for land attacks using bombs.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Well firstly, I said I think the J10B will be the final major modification of the J10. I never said that CAC and the PLAAF will stop improving on their existing planes and upgrading them throughout their service lives. But those will be incremental upgrades rather than a revolutionary leap like the J10B was compared to the J10A.

As for dedicated vs multi role, as a general rule, I never accept "well everyone else does it" as a valid excuse for why I should also do something.

The vast majority of air forces people tend to include in the proverbial 'everyone else' in this case are western NATO air forces, which for all intents and purposes could be counted as a single case since they all follow broadly similar general philosophies.

Furthermore, all those NATO air forces were built with the expectation that they would be fighting either significantly weaker opponents (Libya), and/or they would be fighting as part of a US led coalition. In both cases, establishing air superiority would never have been an issue.

None of that applies to China, and indeed, when you are building your military with the expectation of having to fight against the world's only military superpower, is it any wonder you come up with significantly different conclusions to those who built their forces expecting to fight alongside the US?

On top of that, there is the vastly different strategic role and position China finds itself compared to the US.

America is an offensive global force who never realistically expects to have to fight over their own soil. When America goes to war, they go to war far from home usually without deploying ground forces, so pretty much all their offensive firepower has to come from the sea or the air. That is why its important for every fighter to be able to engage ground targets.

China is still a locally defensive power, and if China does to war, it will be fighting mainly over its own territory, or extremely close to it.

In a primarily defensive war over Chinese territorial, what does multirole capability add to the PLA? I am, of course ruling out the scenario of a foreign invasion of the Chinese mainland as I don't think anyone has the capability to seriously contempt it, never mind hope to be able to pull it off.

Even in a war in China's near abroad, just where would the PLA realistically be fighting that would require it to have a full multirole fighter fleet as its primary offensive means? Against any of China's land locked neighbours, the PLA will be bringing the big guns and delivering the hammer blows. All of China's maritime neighbours are either too far away for land based fighters to be of much use, and/or are US allies and the PLAAF would need to defeat the USAF/USN in addition to their own national air forces before they can even think about engaging ground targets on a large scale.

Even in a Taiwan scenario multirole fighters would be of little use since the PLAAF will not have the luxury to systematically bomb the defences to dust before sending in the grunts. Any Chinese invasion of Taiwan would involve an overwhelming missile strike by cruise and ballistic missiles followed by a massive amphibious invasion as soon as the PLAAF achieves air superiority and clears the landing sites, after which the PLA would, again be delivering the primary hammer blow. At that point, the PLAAF would probably have to gear up ready to fight off a US military intervention rather than help the ground pounders take the island.

Multirole might be nice and all fashionable, but its not really all that important for the PLAAF at present or in the near future.
I agree with the thrust of your points, but would like to nitpick the conclusion. The PLAAF certainly doesn't need as much striking capability as any of the NATO countries, but it DOES need the capability, maybe not immediately, but definitely some time in the future. Not only does the strike role ensure that if Taiwan could hold out against a Chinese missile offensive before a land invasion that their offensive capacity wouldn't be depleted by their stock of missiles, but it would be critical for securing the island and hitting discrete targets in the event of an occupation. Furthermore, in the event of a regional war it would need to be able to attack offshore bases with a degree of regularity, unpredictability, and precision that missiles sometimes can't provide.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Well firstly, I said I think the J10B will be the final major modification of the J10. I never said that CAC and the PLAAF will stop improving on their existing planes and upgrading them throughout their service lives. But those will be incremental upgrades rather than a revolutionary leap like the J10B was compared to the J10A.

I see, however, I think you're suggesting the J-10A and continued J-10B production will remain enough for the PLA, along with expected upgrades in avionics?

I suppose my opinion will have to differ here with yours (if what I stated was indeed your position). I think more extensive upgrades will eventually be instigated, and in a more formal way (i.e.: not simply one batch improving incrementally from the previous on a small facet). Upgrades including engines, avionics, and even some minor structural upgrades, can and imho should be investigated as J-10/A/B production continues in the years to come.

A more multirole orientation may or may not be included.


As for dedicated vs multi role, as a general rule, I never accept "well everyone else does it" as a valid excuse for why I should also do something.

....

Multirole might be nice and all fashionable, but its not really all that important for the PLAAF at present or in the near future.


While there is merit in the idea of PLAAF preserving fighters in more fixed, single role duties as a result of facing the US, I believe the added flexibility of having a fleet capable of precision ground attack on top of purpose oriented strike aircraft will be more than worth any losses in air to air training hours. Implementing such a wide scale multirole fleet will favour a common (or at least a more common) air to ground munition base for all multirole aircraft + strike aircraft, and will benefit wartime redundancy, mission planning options, attrition, and basing/rebasing.
 

franco-russe

Senior Member
Thank you very much Franco-Russe I was kind of expecting you to answer that one!

Yeah, I guessed as much. A correction, though (because I took the data from my older Order of Battle):

In 4 Naval Aviation Division, 12 Regt has now returned to Taizhou-Luqiao. But it converted from J-7E to J-10 at Feidong, from where 10 Regt was rebased to Ningbo-Zhuangqiao. 10 Regt is now back at Feidong.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I agree with the thrust of your points, but would like to nitpick the conclusion. The PLAAF certainly doesn't need as much striking capability as any of the NATO countries, but it DOES need the capability, maybe not immediately, but definitely some time in the future. Not only does the strike role ensure that if Taiwan could hold out against a Chinese missile offensive before a land invasion that their offensive capacity wouldn't be depleted by their stock of missiles, but it would be critical for securing the island and hitting discrete targets in the event of an occupation. Furthermore, in the event of a regional war it would need to be able to attack offshore bases with a degree of regularity, unpredictability, and precision that missiles sometimes can't provide.

That is why the PLAAF and PLANAF maintain huge dedicated striker fleets in the form of JH7As and Su30MKK.

JH7As are still being built, and the J16 is supposed to supplement the MKK fleet and replace some of the oldest birds as they reach the end of their service lives.

The PLA has invested heavily in their long range precision strike capabilities and can certainly do all of the above you have pointed out, they will just be doing it with dedicated strikers rather than rely on the bulk of the line fighters for precision strike missions.
 
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