J-10 Thread III (Closed to posting)

[Lion]

I have no idea if it's true but don't know what the fuss it's about, and have no problem believing it either.
Even F22 get beaten in dogfights by non-stealth jets sometimes. Others with generational gaps like F15/16 getting beaten by F5/A4/Mig21 etc in WVR is not uncommon as well.
And with exercises, rules of engagements are often less than 100% real life anyway.

PAF pilots are after all among the best dog-fighters there are. I'd even put them above USAF. I don't think they'll compare too badly against the Israelis either.

I completely disagree.. Mirage III got lock more times in BVR by J-10 and shot down more is acceptable.
But a 60's Mirage III vintage that is famous for lack of turns and agility shot down more of J-10 in WVR is laughable.

We are not talking about J-7PG. J-7PG despite carry the Mig-21 legacy has modify crank wing that helps in low speed turn and much powerful engine which still makes it fearsome in dogfight.

The Mirage III uses by PAF is essential now has no physically different of any help in agility from the 60s design .

 

[hardware]

that's all depend on the quality of the pilot.

 

[Lion]

that's all depend on the quality of the pilot.

So you are implying you uses a twisted article and try to prove PLAAF pilot quality is bad?

 

[Munir]

If it looks like bull and smells like bull, it probably is bull. Mirage 3s getting beat 7/3 in BVR against J10s is fishy enough, winning 6/3 in WVR is download unbelievable. So on the face of it, the story is suspicious enough.

Then lets have a look at the providence of the story. Posted by the alt of a former member banned for posting baseless BS negative stories about China, claiming to be sourced from Pakistani news no one else have heard anything about, and as far as anyone can tell, first posted on some random Chinese BBS.

If the origin of the story was really as claimed, we should have seen the story break on English language forums like Pakdefence and only translated into Chinese later.

I don't frequent Pakdefence, but I would expect Indian fanboys to be plastering this everywhere before it was translated into Chinese if it was posted there. So I am calling BS on this story. And I suggest the mods have a look at the IP address of Hardware, and if he is Challenge, he should 'stay gone', as the dark lord would put it.

PAF has defeated a 5 times bigger enemy (India) in he air. PAF has world record of killing 5 planes in one dogfight M.M. Alam. PAF has shown it can defeat Israeli pilots in much better planes. It has been praised by many airforces. During Anatolean Eagle a few years ago the 80'era non upgraded F16's defeated Italian Typhoon in WVR. Last month PAF MLU f16 beated saudi pilots in F15/Typhoon, UAE pilots in block60/mirage2000dash5. I am not interested in flame wars but if you have not a single historic fact then what do you believe? Dreams. The chinese first saw A5 flying fast, extremely low and inverted by PAF pilot... They did not even believe it was possible. I bet we are good, if not one of the best. Whether chinese pilots are good? I think they are transforming from f6 era to stealth very rapidly but you cannot change pilots overnight. I have met quite a few pilots up close. They are good. Extremely good. I think that if we have equal planes they will beat opponents like Israel even today.

The difference between USAF pilots and israeli/PAF pilots is huge. They have total different doctrine. Where USAF relies on massive and overwhelming attack with focus on netcentric warfare they will not win in WVR fights agaist Israeli and Pakistani pilots which have focus on perfection in every aspect. If you cannot keep up with the best you are thrown out of the airforce. And neither do you get in by titles or rich network.

 

[Schumacher]

As for what it all means for pilot quality ? I'd really be more worried if PLAAF pilots spend as much or more time than small forces like PAF, the Israelis & S'pore etc in 1 on 1 WVR trainings. Big boys like PLAAF & USAF should & do train more in utilizing their huge advantages in techs, ie BVR stuffs etc, & numbers rather than dog-fighting.
Not to mention the little guys don't have the strategic depths to survive surprise attacks. So WVR skills are critical to them unless they want to make a preemptive strike on their opponents.

 

[Munir]

As for what it all means for pilot quality ? I'd really be more worried if PLAAF pilots spend as much or more time than small forces like PAF, the Israelis & S'pore etc in 1 on 1 WVR trainings. Big boys like PLAAF & USAF should & do train more in utilizing their huge advantages in techs, ie BVR stuffs etc, & numbers rather than dog-fighting.
Not to mention the little guys don't have the strategic depths to survive surprise attacks. So WVR skills are critical to them unless they want to make a preemptive strike on their opponents.

I think if you have only close border interests with average opponents you can afford to have less quality and more quantity. If you have international interest you need kind of "coalition" to strike with bigger quality and quantity. If you have local overwhelming opponent you cannot afford to have lower quality but certainly not less trained pilots.

 

[Munir]

So you are implying you uses a twisted article and try to prove PLAAF pilot quality is bad?

It is surely not bad. It depends on their doctrine. They an afford quantity. Just remember how USA had terrible tanks against the might German Tigers. You can still win if you can afford losses.

 

[kwaigonegin]

As for what it all means for pilot quality ? I'd really be more worried if PLAAF pilots spend as much or more time than small forces like PAF, the Israelis & S'pore etc in 1 on 1 WVR trainings. Big boys like PLAAF & USAF should & do train more in utilizing their huge advantages in techs, ie BVR stuffs etc, & numbers rather than dog-fighting.
Not to mention the little guys don't have the strategic depths to survive surprise attacks. So WVR skills are critical to them unless they want to make a preemptive strike on their opponents.

There is defensive air doctrine and offensive air doctrine. What you say is partially true however the US has the advantage of being isolated by 2 giant oceans and last I check Canada and Mexico are not planning on attacking or invading the US... at least not militarily
China's geography is a little different.

At Mach 2, fighters from neighboring countries can be in Chinese airspace or even population centers in mere minutes from take off. To discount dogfigting skills is silly for far more than one reason IMHO.

 

[tphuang]

I would say that the majority of stories posted by hardware is from really bad sources. In this particular case, that story looks to be a complete fabrication by some fanboy on Chinese bbs. That's why I alwasy say to look at the source before debating. Whether the story makes China sound good or bad, the source could be off in both cases. Generally, anytime that an article claims to have been translated from a non-Chinese website, it's most likely modified and therefore not to be trusted.

Hardware, please be more careful about the source what you post.

I don't really see what's the point of these discussions of PLAAF vs PAF pilot quality since the article itself is a fabrication.

Please get back to J-10. Any further discusion on pilot quality will be moved or deleted.

 

[Hyperwarp]

^^^

yes sir back to J-10