J-10 Thread III (Closed to posting)

[Lion]

lol, who told you AL-31FN offers inferior thrust compared to WS-10A? If J-10B uses AL-31FN, that simply mains WS-10A for J-10 is not ready from a thrust or a reliability point of view.

Do you realize SAC is also heavily involved in the J-20 project? There is no such scheme by SAC or Shenyang Liming to limit CAC projects.

AVIC website list WS-10 as 132kn thrust. Al-31Fn is well known at 125kn.

WS-10A is not reliable. You must be kidding? You are telling me Chinese who are ultra conservative military risk taker will use a not so reliable engine for prototype first flight test? Seriously do you know how dangerous and risky is it for an initial test flight? Chinese will never use an unproven and not so reliable engine to power their prototype like J-16 and J-15s. I will rank it even more dangerous than flying a proven single engine aircraft.

I am not rubbishing. Use yr analysis and think about it. SAC new fighter and prototype are all receving domestic engine. What makes J-10 so special that its not using it? Just becos its single engine(See above of my comment)?

J-20 is an high priority project which I think Shenyang dare not mess around. But J-10 is an different ball. J-10 role can be replace by SAC J-11B product if neccessary. By delaying it and try to manipulate the top level decision to endorse more of their product is possible.
The only way Chengdu can counter will be to breakfree from Shenyang limitation of engine supply by buying Russians.

 

[Deino]

Sorry but did anyone notice that SAC (Shenyang Aircraft Corporation) is not the same as Shenyang Liming !????

Deino

 

[Lion]

Sorry but did anyone notice that SAC (Shenyang Aircraft Corporation) is not the same as Shenyang Liming !????

Deino

Shenyang Liming is under Shenyang(SAC)

 

[escobar]

 

[Totoro]

hmm, does this mean sixth batch has 40 singleseaters? would that make it the largest batch of j10 planes ever produced? Another regiment seems sure to be in the making, only question is when and where...

 

[tphuang]

AVIC website list WS-10 as 132kn thrust. Al-31Fn is well known at 125kn.

WS-10A is not reliable. You must be kidding? You are telling me Chinese who are ultra conservative military risk taker will use a not so reliable engine for prototype first flight test? Seriously do you know how dangerous and risky is it for an initial test flight? Chinese will never use an unproven and not so reliable engine to power their prototype like J-16 and J-15s. I will rank it even more dangerous than flying a proven single engine aircraft.

I am not rubbishing. Use yr analysis and think about it. SAC new fighter and prototype are all receving domestic engine. What makes J-10 so special that its not using it? Just becos its single engine(See above of my comment)?

J-20 is an high priority project which I think Shenyang dare not mess around. But J-10 is an different ball. J-10 role can be replace by SAC J-11B product if neccessary. By delaying it and try to manipulate the top level decision to endorse more of their product is possible.
The only way Chengdu can counter will be to breakfree from Shenyang limitation of engine supply by buying Russians.

in the Zhuhai air show, AVIC1 said the thrust of taihang is 12.5 ton, basically the same as AL-31FN.

If you go look in the WS-10 thread, you would've seen Maya (who is as knowledgeable on this topic as anyone we know) state that the engine developed for J-10 is different from the one used on J-11. One is FWS-10 for flankers and the other is FWS-10A for J-10. It probably has higher thrust and reliability requirements along with the gearbox on the bottom. Now, FWS-10 appears to reliable enough for new aircraft now. The latter has been testing on prototype 1035 for a while now. I don't know what its status is. PLAAF will use it when it's a better option than AL-31FN. That's how it is. You seem to not even realize that FWS-10 and FWS-10A are separate projects. Whether or not FWS-10A has achieved its original requirement at this point, we don't really know.

J-10's role cannot be replaced by J-11B, lol. J-10 is currently the most capable air superiority fighter jet in service with PLAAF.

Why does CAC even bother to produce a prototype that tests with taihang if it knows it can't get an engine from Shenyang liming? Why does CAC have to use FWS-10A for J-10B? If the Russians can offer a variant of AL-31FN with higher thrust (let's say 140 kn) and longer service life if 99M series ever goes production, why should CAC have to use FWS-10A? Why would PLAAF allow its most capable fighter jet jeopardized by pettiness from Shenyang?

Do you realize that WS-18 and WS-118 design work are all done by SAERI (Shenyang Aeroengine Research Institute) but the actual production will be done by Xi'an Aero-engine group? If we go by your theory that SAC can prioritize all of its own guys to suppress other AVIC1 entities, then how does something developed by SAERI not be produced by Shenyang Liming, by Xi'an AE? I think it's also the case for WS-15, but I'm not 100% sure.

Do you realize that 1/3 of the work for FWS-10 is done by Xi'an AE? Do you think they would put up with such a nefarious scheme by Shenyang Liming?

 

[kroko]

Why does CAC have to use FWS-10A for J-10B? If the Russians can offer a variant of AL-31FN with higher thrust (let's say 140 kn) and longer service life if 99M series ever goes production, why should CAC have to use FWS-10A?

huh..perhabs because china prefers to develop and use its own equipment, (investment on its own tech and industry and not be dependent on others) even if it mean using inferior equipment. Unless they have such a urgent need that it overrides that necessity.

Do we know for sure that j-10B will even be produced?

 

[Lion]

in the Zhuhai air show, AVIC1 said the thrust of taihang is 12.5 ton, basically the same as AL-31FN.

If you go look in the WS-10 thread, you would've seen Maya (who is as knowledgeable on this topic as anyone we know) state that the engine developed for J-10 is different from the one used on J-11. One is FWS-10 for flankers and the other is FWS-10A for J-10. It probably has higher thrust and reliability requirements along with the gearbox on the bottom. Now, FWS-10 appears to reliable enough for new aircraft now. The latter has been testing on prototype 1035 for a while now. I don't know what its status is. PLAAF will use it when it's a better option than AL-31FN. That's how it is. You seem to not even realize that FWS-10 and FWS-10A are separate projects. Whether or not FWS-10A has achieved its original requirement at this point, we don't really know.

J-10's role cannot be replaced by J-11B, lol. J-10 is currently the most capable air superiority fighter jet in service with PLAAF.

Why does CAC even bother to produce a prototype that tests with taihang if it knows it can't get an engine from Shenyang liming? Why does CAC have to use FWS-10A for J-10B? If the Russians can offer a variant of AL-31FN with higher thrust (let's say 140 kn) and longer service life if 99M series ever goes production, why should CAC have to use FWS-10A? Why would PLAAF allow its most capable fighter jet jeopardized by pettiness from Shenyang?

Do you realize that WS-18 and WS-118 design work are all done by SAERI (Shenyang Aeroengine Research Institute) but the actual production will be done by Xi'an Aero-engine group? If we go by your theory that SAC can prioritize all of its own guys to suppress other AVIC1 entities, then how does something developed by SAERI not be produced by Shenyang Liming, by Xi'an AE? I think it's also the case for WS-15, but I'm not 100% sure.

Do you realize that 1/3 of the work for FWS-10 is done by Xi'an AE? Do you think they would put up with such a nefarious scheme by Shenyang Liming?

The different between the FWS-10 and FWS-10A are basically the different location of gearbox. Same as AL-31F and AL-31FN. If J-10B goes for AL-31FN then something is wrong since it can't offer any increase of thrust and is a foreign engine.

You can't expect shenyang to openly state their intention of limiting J-10 in service, right? They need to play along and offer a few WS-10A engine to chengdu to test out. But when crouch times come, they can simply bang out production limit to curb J-10 presence. Chengdu can't just stop their J-10 if there is no domestic engine used intended by top brass. Top brass probably no choice but to accept the reality of J-10 continue isn't using foreign engine but at the same time. The priority of J-10 will drop since it still dependant on foreign engine.

J-10 is aerodynamic superior to J-11 but by no means flanker is not agile and inferior by a big percent. If the needs arrival, I believe top brass see no problem J-11 takes over J-10 as air superiority given its bigger frame to complete more task and cover more area of ops.

 

[MiG-29]

i have to admmit you post are some of the best here full of pictures, like they say a picture is better than a thousend words, it is true i like your pictures, thanks

 

[tphuang]

huh..perhabs because china prefers to develop and use its own equipment, (investment on its own tech and industry and not be dependent on others) even if it mean using inferior equipment. Unless they have such a urgent need that it overrides that necessity.

Do we know for sure that j-10B will even be produced?

so if the engines are more or less the same, they will pick the Chinese one. But if they get an advanced variant of 99M series that turns out to have greater thrust and service life, what do you do if you are PLAAF?

Why would J-10B not be produced? What's the alternative for CAC and PLAAF?

The different between the FWS-10 and FWS-10A are basically the different location of gearbox. Same as AL-31F and AL-31FN. If J-10B goes for AL-31FN then something is wrong since it can't offer any increase of thrust and is a foreign engine.

You can't expect shenyang to openly state their intention of limiting J-10 in service, right? They need to play along and offer a few WS-10A engine to chengdu to test out. But when crouch times come, they can simply bang out production limit to curb J-10 presence. Chengdu can't just stop their J-10 if there is no domestic engine used intended by top brass. Top brass probably no choice but to accept the reality of J-10 continue isn't using foreign engine but at the same time. The priority of J-10 will drop since it still dependant on foreign engine.

J-10 is aerodynamic superior to J-11 but by no means flanker is not agile and inferior by a big percent. If the needs arrival, I believe top brass see no problem J-11 takes over J-10 as air superiority given its bigger frame to complete more task and cover more area of ops.

The top brass has seen that J-10 kicks flankers in every major exercises since J-10 has joined service despite being much cheaper to produce. Flanker series has its roles and J-10 series has its role. Nothing in production right now can replace the role of J-10 for PLAAF.

Why don't you answer the questions I put down? Shenyang has always cooperated with Chengdu on the major projects. That's how it works inside AVIC1 and PLAAF. The only argument you are making is that J-10 is not so important, so Shenyang can somehow defy the will of AVIC1 and PLAAF. Which is completely not true, since J-10 currently has an irreplaceable role with

Again, why does the major turbofan engine project for Y-20 get produced by Xi'an AE when they are designed by SAERI? According to your theory, shouldn't Shenyang Liming be able to bag those since they are both in Shenyang?
How does Shenyang Liming get the whole say in where FWS-10 goes when Xi'an AE does 1/3 of the production for it and they are both under AVIC1?
Why do you continue to assume that they are the same engine when FWS-10 and FWS-10A clearly have different requirements when it comes to thrust, reliability and gearbox location?