J-10 Thread III (Closed to posting)

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Maggern

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Funny. Russia is ahead in aircraft engines, but lag behind in electronics which are easier to develop.

And what about radars? is it true that china is ahead of russia in this regard?

The reason electronics are fairing ahead in the modern world is their sailability and fast investment-return rate. They are marketable, are fast to implement and can make minute, incremental steps, meaning you don't need to invest much to get a return. Soviet industry was geared towards heavy manufacturing, while market-driven economies like the Western ones (and recently China) are geared more towards electronics.

Engines are few and far between, requiring massive investment to get an improvement because there are so many parts that need to fall in place to have a successful product. And of course you have a whole plane relying on the sole engine (while it might survive a failing microchip), meaninig there is little room for error. The Soviets were good at engines. Though they require a lot of expertise and experience to build satisfactorily. China has yet to attain that,
 

siegecrossbow

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Funny. Russia is ahead in aircraft engines, but lag behind in electronics which are easier to develop.

And what about radars? is it true that china is ahead of russia in this regard?

China is ahead in electronics but definitely not in radar. We have to keep in mind that the first electronically scanned radars are invented in Russia. However I think that China will catch up with Russia in radars before catching up in engines.
 

Hendrik_2000

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China is ahead in electronics but definitely not in radar. We have to keep in mind that the first electronically scanned radars are invented in Russia. However I think that China will catch up with Russia in radars before catching up in engines.

I thought Japan is the first country to introduce AESEA But their first design has only short distance , The US improve on it . Russia hasn't had any production model for a long time . They had numerous prototype . Maybe by now they solved the problem
 

Blitzo

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China is ahead in electronics but definitely not in radar. We have to keep in mind that the first electronically scanned radars are invented in Russia. However I think that China will catch up with Russia in radars before catching up in engines.
I think there should be parity in radar tech between china and russia (at least).

One just has to look at the number of AESA's they are fielding, respectively.
 

siegecrossbow

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I thought Japan is the first country to introduce AESEA But their first design has only short distance , The US improve on it . Russia hasn't had any production model for a long time . They had numerous prototype . Maybe by now they solved the problem

The first PESA was used on MIG-31s. Russia has suffered financially since the collapse of the Soviet Union so stagnation in radar development is expected.

I
think there should be parity in radar tech between china and russia (at least).

One just has to look at the number of AESA's they are fielding, respectively.

Has China fielded any airborne AESA besides the one in KJ2000?
 

Blitzo

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Has China fielded any airborne AESA besides the one in KJ2000?

KJ-200? (I'd mention the respective AESA's for the J-10B and 5th gen fighters...)

And there's also the AESA antennaes on the 052C of course. (The land based HQ-9's acquisition radar, Type 305 is also probably AESA as well)


Either way, China has fielded and manufactured more of the stuff than Russia, not sure what that says about their respective electronic and radar industries in detail but I infer rough parity.
 

siegecrossbow

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KJ-200? (I'd mention the respective AESA's for the J-10B and 5th gen fighters...)

And there's also the AESA antennaes on the 052C of course. (The land based HQ-9's acquisition radar, Type 305 is also probably AESA as well)


Either way, China has fielded and manufactured more of the stuff than Russia, not sure what that says about their respective electronic and radar industries in detail but I infer rough parity.

I thought that the AESA on the J-10b is still speculative at this point. As for J-XX it is still in development.

It is only a matter of time before Chinese radars catchup with the Russian ones but right now I wouldn't exactly say that they are on the same level.
 

Blitzo

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I thought that the AESA on the J-10b is still speculative at this point. As for J-XX it is still in development.

It is only a matter of time before Chinese radars catchup with the Russian ones but right now I wouldn't exactly say that they are on the same level.

Not wanting to get confrontational, but which airborne AESAs (or seaborne/landbased) do you know that the Russians have got in service at all as of present?

The Mig-35's AESA is still under development as much as the PAK FA and J-XX and J-10B's respective radars are, so I don't really see how the Russians are ahead.
(You can tell the J-10B will be using an ESA radar due to the significant cant of the radome, meaning there won't be space for any mechanical radar to move its head around; and it probably won't be PESA because we've simply heard nothing about Chinese PESA development, and the abundance of KJ-2000/KJ-200 shows they've mastered aspects of manufacturing AESA T/R modules -- it'll be stupid to take a step back when leapfrogging the generation will not be a big task)

I wouldn't say that China's ahead in radar tech, but they are roughly even; there are few areas where the Russians are ahead in that I can think of in this category.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
The first PESA was used on MIG-31s. Russia has suffered financially since the collapse of the Soviet Union so stagnation in radar development is expected.

Has China fielded any airborne AESA besides the one in KJ2000?

Not only China fielded KJ2000 but The state of Modern electromagnetic design in China is way ahead of Russia . Russia cannot fielded AESA because their transmitter/receiver is way too expensive . It is ok to build prototype . Anyway PESA is outdated and no other country follow the Russian design . Read this report from strategy center about the state of Chinese electronic

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2) Chinese Defence Products Today: State-of-the Art

Chinese defence products were once thought of as being moderately capable copies of previous-generation hardware that contained attributes of Russian, European and Israeli designs. Some of those bloodlines can still be seen in their designs, but the products now being seen at an expo like CIDEX show that Chinese firms have capabilities that approach first world industrial, state-of-the-art levels of sophistication.

In the 1990s, when the Russian defence was in danger of drying up and closing its doors due to an almost complete collapse in any funding from their own government, it was China that saved the day. China bought billions in military hardware from Russia, but it also sent its engineers, designers and technicians to study inside of Russian industry to learn how the weapons it was purchasing had been developed in the first place.

This transfer of technological know-how, plus some enormous investments by the Chinese military into its state-owned industries (what more than one Russian has referred to as “uncontrolled and rampant modernisation”) has produced a defence electronics industry that far outstrips the size and capacity of that which existed in Russia when Chinese industry first began their cooperation with Moscow in the early 1990s.

Today the former students (the Chinese) have become the masters. Chinese industry now has the ability to produce components that the Russian electronics industry (after almost two decades of no investment by their government) is no longer capable of either designing or manufacturing. The initial failure rates on the production of transmit/receive (T/R) modules for the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radars being designed for the Mikoyan MiG-35 and the Sukhoi T-50/PAK-FA 5th-generation fighter, for example, were so high that it would have bankrupted any western firm involved in a similar programme.

Not surprisingly, this year’s CIDEX show saw groups of Russian specialists going through the halls and looking for components that they could source out of China to be utilised in Russian-designed weapon systems. Russian specialists will point out that they are now at a huge disadvantage to the Chinese in two very significant respects.

One is that the commitment by the central government in resources to the defence electronics sector is both sustained and serious. “They can take a field where there is nothing but flat land and wild grass,” said one Russian company representative, “and the next thing you know there is a full-blown factory or design centre there turning out a world-class product.”
 
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