Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and other Related Conflicts in the Middle East (read the rules in the first post)

phrozenflame

phrozenflame

Junior Member
Registered Member
SlothmanAllen said:
You could be right, but they might be waiting for quite a while. The House Republicans are very disorganized and fractured. I am not sure if the groups within the caucus will be able to find common ground.
Click to expand...
Oh they will find non partisan common ground on Israel or AIPAC will cancel them. This isn't Ukraine.

---

I wonder if Hamas has new tricks up it's sleeve for the ground invasion.
 
H

Heliox

Junior Member
Registered Member
MarKoz81 said:
Narratives blaming "racist west" for not recognising Palestine are counter-factual.

Western countries don't recognize Palestine as a state because there is no formal legal instrument to do so apart from unilateral proclamation that some countries made - former Soviet bloc, Sweden and Iceland. Proclamations are not legal in nature but political. They are not legally binding unless as consequence of the proclamation laws are passed that make it binding. And that rarely happens because most proclamations are just rhetoric to influence, deceive or deflect other political rhetoric. Poland recognizes Palestine and it has exactly zero consequence on what Poland does because there are no legal relationships between Poland and Palestine because Palestine doesn't exist as a de facto state.

On the other hand Taiwan existed as a de facto state called "Republic of China" so Taiwan has de facto legal relationship with Poland even though Poland doesn't recognise either Taiwan or Republic of China and officially recognizes "one China". That's because there are multiple entities and legal relationships that connect the two despite formal recognition.

Counter-intuitive? Yes. Self-contradictory? No. Politics is a non-euclidean space.

That's why Israel is making such effort in disrupting Palestinian territories and expanding settlements, supporting rival factions etc. It is to prevent a de facto recognition. Israel understands the legal game of recognition. Palestine doesn't.

And since there is no state of Palestine de facto there can't be one de jure as far as European legal systems are concerned and if anyone tried to recognise it formally it would likely be overturned in courts because the legal instruments that e.g. US or Israel would bring against any country recognising Palestine would be significant.

And if you don't believe me ask yourself this: how many separatist movements are there in Europe and how many are recognised by other countries?

State of Palestine is just some people claiming to be a legitimate state entity. But if they tried to put it into effect their own "people" would not agree with them. The reason why there has been no election in Palestine since 2006 is that both Hamas and Fatah disagree on fundamental systemic issues that prevent them from ever cooperating. Otherwise they'd just unilaterally declare independence for Palestine and force events.

PLO couldn't achieve independence because it wasn't supported by all of Palestine. Its actions - including terrorim - were aimed at building legitimacy in the same way that Hamas is building its own. If Palestine was united as a de facto nation history would look different. Jews united themselves as a de facto nation - despite their differences, much greater than those among the Palestinians - and that's why we have a state of Israel but not of Palestine. It's that simple and Palestinians are still refusing to fully come to terms with it.

Also trying to make this conflict into something that is fundamentally different from the many similar conflicts around the world is just blatant manipulation. It's very easy to bring Palestine and Taiwan on the same level because they are largely similar problems as far as politics and feeling is involved. Which is why we shouldn't be focusing on feelings and politics but fact and accepted rules.

Israel is a problem because it violates the rules it imposes on others and not because it does anything to "Palestine" because no matter how much anti-Israeli or anti-Jewish crowd screams there still isn't a "Palestine" to speak of. And we don't know if it there would be a Palestine if Israel suddenly started to obey the rules. We genuinely don't.

The reason why Arab states fought "for Palestine" was because it was meant to become a part of territory of either Nasser's "United Arab Republic" or Jordan's Hashemite Kingdom. Many fight against Israel hoping for a Caliphate. If there wasn't a common enemy Gaza might prefer to split from West Bank to benefit more from offshore gas fields that would fall within its EEZ etc. West Bank would limit access to water which is an extremely scarce and strategic resource.

Palestinian statehood is as much an external problem as it is an internal one, but admitting the latter doesn't help making money on "cause" and "Palestine" is still much more of a business venture than a genuine nation. Nation-building is difficult. Look at Afghanistan if you don't believe me.

Here are the de facto two sides of the conflict:
  • State of Israel
  • Civilian population of Palestinian territories
This asymmetry is precisely why the conflict exists. Otherwise it would have ended in 1948.

EOT.

--------
Click to expand...

EOT?

Is this what White Europeans tell themselves so they can sleep better at night?

UN Resolution 43/177 of November 1988 recognised the State of Palestine as a de facto independent state.

The below is a map of UN member nations that passed the above resolution recognising The State of Palestine as an independent Nation State.

Capture.JPG

Notice how it inversely mirrors the common "World" view as put forth by western countries?
Like how the "World" sanctioned Russia when it's really only themselves and the "Real Rest of The World" ™ doesn't give two hoots?

Here's the other thing about the Rule Based International Order ™
The UN represents the Rule Based International Order, does it not?

The UN recognises Palestine as an Independent State.
Your governments formally support the 2 state solution ... but yet does everything in practice to undermine the 2 state solution, eg. as you so succinctly put it, by not extending de jure recognition of the State of Palestine (even though the Real Rest of The World de facto and de jure recognises Palestine). I guess you guys do this so you can continue to "legally" wash your hands of the problem.

Just like ROC - NOT recognised in UN as an independent state.
Your governments formally support a 1 nation policy ... but yet do everything in their power to treat ROC as an independent state, to the point of supplying arms to it.
Really, what do you think if the Rest of the World should start supplying arms to the Free Danzig and Silesian Independance movements?

Poland and all the other nations in the White part of the world (per the map above) are part of the UN are they not? You subscribe to the Rule Based International Order ™ right? After all you guys coined that term - so either you subscribe to it or ... lets just admit that it's really One rule for me and One rule for thee.

Palestine is a State.
Your failure to recognise it and treat it as such is a reflection of your duplicity.
Nothing more, nothing less.

#EOT
 
Last edited:
FairAndUnbiased

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Heliox said:
EOT?

Is this what White Europeans tell themselves so they can sleep better at night?

UN Resolution 43/177 of November 1988 recognised the State of Palestine as a de facto independent state.

The below is a map of UN member nations that passed the above resolution recognising The State of Palestine as an independent Nation State.

View attachment 120082

Notice how it inversely mirrors the common "World" view as put forth by western countries?
Like how the "World" sanctioned Russia when it's really only themselves and the "Real Rest of The World" ™ doesn't give two hoots?

Here's the other thing about the Rule Based International Order ™
The UN represents the Rule Based International Order, does it not?

The UN recognises Palestine as an Independent State.
Your governments formally support the 2 state solution ... but yet does everything in practice to undermine the 2 state solution, eg. as you so succinctly put it, by not extending de jure recognition of the State of Palestine (even though the Real Rest of The World de facto and de jure recognises Palestine). I guess you guys do this so you can continue to "legally" wash your hands of the problem.

Just like ROC - NOT recognised in UN as an independent state.
Your governments formally support a 1 nation policy ... but yet do everything in their power to treat ROC as an independent state, to the point of supplying arms to it.
Really, what do you think if the Rest of the World should start supplying arms to the Free Danzig and Silesian Independance movements?

Poland and all the other nations in the White part of the world (per the map above) are part of the UN are they not? You subscribe to the Rule Based International Order ™ right? After all you guys coined that term - so either you subscribe to it or ... lets just admit that it's really One rule for me and One rule for thee.

Palestine is a State.
Your failure to recognise it and treat it as such is a reflection of your duplicity.
Nothing more, nothing less.

#EOT
Click to expand...
I must point out that Poland is actually in the green, as is Ukraine and Sweden. On the other hand lol@ SK and JP.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top