Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and other Related Conflicts in the Middle East (read the rules in the first post)

AndrewS said:

And if the US had stayed in Vietnam, would they have lost? I think the answer would have been yes.

Remember that Nazi Germany, WW2 Japan and the Confederacy were fighting for their homelands.
There was nowhere for them to retreat to - unlike the US in Vietnam

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If they had stayed it would still be going on today. Again what is your definition of lost? You seemed to confuse what a lost really is. If lost means white flag, signed treaty of surrender than no.
It would be impossible for the US to lose. At worst they deemed the war not worth it anymore, pack up and go home like they did.
As I mentioned to even compare Vietnam to the current Israel/Palestinian is ridiculous as the dynamics are totally different.
Both sides believe they are each fighting for thier own very survival be it real or projected.
Vietnam wad never about survival. It was more about ideology and a proxy war with the Soviets.

kwaigonegin said:

If they had stayed it would still be going on today. Again what is your definition of lost? You seemed to confuse what a lost really is. If lost means white flag, signed treaty of surrender than no.
It would be impossible for the US to lose. At worst they deemed the war not worth it anymore, pack up and go home like they did.
As I mentioned to even compare Vietnam to the current Israel/Palestinian is ridiculous as the dynamics are totally different.
Both sides believe they are each fighting for thier own very survival be it real or projected.
Vietnam wad never about survival. It was more about ideology and a proxy war with the Soviets.

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Most people define lost as failed the objective, which America certainly did in Vietnam.

kwaigonegin said:

If they had stayed it would still be going on today. Again what is your definition of lost? You seemed to confuse what a lost really is. If lost means white flag, signed treaty of surrender than no.
It would be impossible for the US to lose. At worst they deemed the war not worth it anymore, pack up and go home like they did.

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What is this logic lmfao

Plenty of caught out units had to white flag and surrender, along with the whole US puppet government of Vietnam.

Start a war with more territory and end with less territory is a pretty damn unambiguous loss.

Evidently the entire US command disagree with your assessment that if they could continue fighting until today, hence the retreat. Your statement is just empty wishful thinking nationalist nonsense.

Yom Kippur didn't end with complete surrender for any side, and you'll probably somewhere find some insane Arab nationalist much like you are an insane US nationalist who thinks if Arabs wanted they could have kept fighting until today. You're both about as sharp and logical.

A lot of people consider the Vietnam War to have bankrupted the US and led to the economic disaster than showed itself since the early 1970s.

America got what it wanted via the Sino-Soviet split. Once the USSR was constrained by an unfriendly China, the impetus to contain Vietnam lessened.

Index said:

Yom Kippur didn't end with complete surrender for any side, and you'll probably somewhere find some insane Arab nationalist much like you are an insane US nationalist who thinks if Arabs wanted they could have kept fighting until today. You're both about as sharp and logical.

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The funny thing is that the Yom Kippur war faltered mostly because Sadat backed out after retaking the Sinai and some backchannel negotiations where he basically betrayed the other allies, but Israel was well on the way to get trashed and soundly beaten to the point of seriously considering the Samson Option.

Luke Warmwar said:

America got what it wanted via the Sino-Soviet split. Once the USSR was constrained by an unfriendly China, the impetus to contain Vietnam lessened.

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Yeah, I'm sure the US was totally fine with losing an anticommunist bulwark in South East Asia while losing massive amounts of planes and soldiers in the process.

Thats some Winter War levels of cope.

kwaigonegin said:

If they had stayed it would still be going on today. Again what is your definition of lost? You seemed to confuse what a lost really is. If lost means white flag, signed treaty of surrender than no.
It would be impossible for the US to lose. At worst they deemed the war not worth it anymore, pack up and go home like they did.
As I mentioned to even compare Vietnam to the current Israel/Palestinian is ridiculous as the dynamics are totally different.
Both sides believe they are each fighting for thier own very survival be it real or projected.
Vietnam wad never about survival. It was more about ideology and a proxy war with the Soviets.

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I don't think so.

What would the situation be like if the US Army were still in Vietnam today?

What we should have seen is US conscripts refusing to join the US Army for decades, knowing they they be sent to Vietnam. Professional soldiers world also be burnt out from knowing they were in a pointless and immoral war where they were the bad guys, and would leave.

So there would be a much shrunken US Army presence. Arguably this would be small enough that the Vietcong could start defeating.
At the same time, the cost to the US would keep increasing upwards to literally unaffordable levels.

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Over 3.1 million soldiers were sent to Vietnam over a roughly 10 year period.

So if the US were to have maintained this level to today, that implies another 15.5 million soldiers would have been needed over the past 5 decades. I severely doubt the US Army could find or coerce enough recruits.

In the real-life timeline, the US Army was already broken by Vietnam. Yet you say the US could sustain another 5 Vietnams?

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In terms of cost, the estimate was roughly equivalent to $1 Trillion today, mostly spent in a roughly 10 year period.

So if the Vietnam war was still on today, that's an additional $5 Trillion added to the US national debt.
If the original spending timeline remains, that $5 Trillion would compound to ridiculously high levels to an additional 100%+ of today's US GDP.
Of course, this wouldn't have happened, so there would been tax increases or domestic spending cuts in the USA.

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Arguably the US economy had already been broken by the real-life Vietnam war.
Yet continuing the Vietnam war for another 50 years is feasible?

kwaigonegin said:

If they had stayed it would still be going on today. Again what is your definition of lost? You seemed to confuse what a lost really is. If lost means white flag, signed treaty of surrender than no.
It would be impossible for the US to lose. At worst they deemed the war not worth it anymore, pack up and go home like they did.
As I mentioned to even compare Vietnam to the current Israel/Palestinian is ridiculous as the dynamics are totally different.
Both sides believe they are each fighting for thier own very survival be it real or projected.
Vietnam wad never about survival. It was more about ideology and a proxy war with the Soviets.

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So by your logic the Soviets never lost their Afghanistan war; the Axis didn’t loose WWI since it was only an armistice that was signed and not treaty of surrender; and the Qing didn’t loose the Opium wars etc.

The everyday equivalent would be like saying that running away after getting your ass beat isn’t loosing because you weren’t KO’d. It doesn’t matter if you landed more punches in the fight. All that matters is that you lost the will and/or the means to continue fighting first.

US ambassador to Lebanon calls for uprising against Hezbollah; admits war failure

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IOF brings bus full of settlers into Nablus (what could go wrong?)

_killuminati_ said:

10,000 Turkish nationals are fighting for IDF, 4,000 in Gaza, and one General handling the Iron Dome defense

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1850507741871460757

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There are a lot of Jews from Turkey owing from the Sephardic migration to the Ottoman Empire to escape the Inquisition. Some of them are probably still holding Turkish citizenship.