Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and other Related Conflicts in the Middle East (read the rules in the first post)

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Dude this was a very successful military and intelligence operation. If any country did this then we will still recognise such a feat. As much as we might hate Israel and their policies, we have to admit they have one of the best intelligence/secret service/militaries im the world. No denying that. Hopefully their adversaries are learning from them as well.

No other country would be proud of breaking international laws to achieve an underhanded sneak attack.

Unfortunately it seems that clever but unwise is a hallmark of Israeli national decision making since its inception. Always looking to maximise the little profits at the expense of the big strategic picture.
 

jiajia99

Junior Member
Registered Member
No other country would be proud of breaking international laws to achieve an underhanded sneak attack.

Unfortunately it seems that clever but unwise is a hallmark of Israeli national decision making since its inception. Always looking to maximise the little profits at the expense of the big strategic picture.
Scary that being successful means going below the belt and I notice some people think that it means that Israel is winning in This situation. The reality is that things are only heating up and by committing such action ultimately frees up the opposing side to do the same at a time of there choosing. Israel tendencies to assume that they are above the law both politically and spiritually is eventually going come crashing down hard although due to how much the USA is working to prevent karma coming to them, it is certainly taking its sweet time but ultimately, the same collapse will hit the USA as well so I guess we will have to wait as horrible as it sounds.
 

JJD1803

Junior Member
Registered Member
Incredible. Isn't Haifa their largest city? No way Israel going to evacuate that. I think they will just stay living in bombardments. Besides, air base is a valid military target, settlers wont leave.
Haifa is the second largest city of Israel and the largest in the north. It being continued fire will have huge economic ramifications. It’s where Israel’s largest port is located. And it’s a major industrial and economic hub. The city being under constant fire will worsen Israel’s economic crisis.
When I said settlers will leave it’s because you have to look at how fickle Israeli society is. If Haifa and south of Haifa stays under rocket,missile and drone fire it’s going to make thes towns unlivable. Israel society cannot handle dealing with hearing constant sirens blaring. It likes to portray its self as a first world country like Western European and North American nations. Those with means will go to other cities like Ashdod or Tel Aviv. According to Israelis themselves about 40-50% of the populace of the north have fled to other areas in Israel. The remaining 60% are staying with the hopes of a ground military operation. However if nothing is done they have said they’ll leave the north too. Same thing will apply for Haifa. The first people to leave will be the wealthy and upper middle class. Which will worsen the economic situation. Many Israelis have multiple passports.

This also puts a lot of pressure on the govt to do something. They are in a damn if they do damned if they don’t. What Hezbollah has done the last 11 months in the past would have had Israel start a full scale war. But now they are deterred. Netanyahu is facing a lot of pushback from the military about a war with Hezbollah. The rational ones have came out saying that if they are struggling against Hamas in Gaza then they will suffer horrifically against Hezbollah who is much larger, with more advanced and lethal weaponry. The way I’m seeing this situation Israel May start the ground war soon. And it’s not a military decision but a political for Netanyahu to stay in power longer,sabotage the US elections for Trump to win, hide the failures of the Gaza ground war and appease the pressure he is feeling from the northern settlers. Weeks ago I thought they wouldn’t be stupid to go for a full scale war but now with the rhetoric and the one year anniversary of October 7 coming it may happen.
 
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MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
Israel wants a regional war because the current war of attrition is too much for them. They believe that in a regional war the US can save them and defeat Iran.

The war and possible expansion of the conflict from local to regional scale is caused exclusively by Israel's internal politics, and more specificially by the impending conviction of Netanyahu. Netanyahu banks on a large war as it allows him to redefine political alliances and narratives. That's why Iran is so reluctant to get involved. Every Iranian proxy and ally in this conflict did the wrong thing by becoming involved because it gave Netanyahu half a victory already.

Pay attention to numbers:

The Israeli political crisis begins in early 2019 when an early Knesset election is called brought about by formal corruption charges against Netanyahu and a bill forcing national service for ultra-orthodox Jews, which threatened crucial Shas and UTJ votes. Centrist liberal party (aflluent middle-class voters) Yesh Atid joins Benny Gantz's party as a Blue and White coalition (centrist, left-leaning). In the first election in April 2019 Likud and Blue&White both gain 35 seats which leads to a stalemate and a second election in September 2019 where Blue&White win 33 seats to Likud's 32. This allows Gantz to form a government but he is unable to do so due to the share of far-right and religious parties. Likud manages to form a broad coalition and Netanyahu remains in power but with a very volatile support. This naturally leads to a third election in March 2020 which is won by Likud with 36 votes to B&W 33. Again a stable coalition is impossible but Likud as the winner retains the privilege for government forming and this enables Likud to enter into coalition with Blue&White. That is also unstable and a fourth election in March 2021 brings a temporary change of pace. Likud wins with 30 seats but this is their lowest result yet and refusal to form a coalition from other parties causes Likud to fail. The government is then formed by very unlikely allies in liberal centrists Yesh Atid (Lapid) and radical right Yamina (Bennet). They alternate as prime minister but their political positions are too far apart and the coalition fails leading to a fifth election in November 2022.

Five inconclusive elections in four years is one more than Germany during Hitler's rise to power (1930-33).

Israeli politics mirrors American pathology of two centrist parties vying for radical support to stay in power although the difference between Israel and US is that in the US that destructive dynamic is imposed on a centrist society by a broken political system while Israeli political system is fairly representative but the society is broken beyond repair.

Historical context in my post from 12 Oct 2023 on Israel's political history.

Note the number of seats and the relatively weak position of the "coalition builder" winner party.

govt. threshold =61Apr 2019 electionSept 2019 electionMar 2020 electionMar 2021 electionNov 2022 electionSept 2022 poll
Likud353236303225-31 (avg 28)
main opponent353333172428-31 (avg 29,5)

Haredi parties Shas (Sephardi) and UTJ (Ashkenazi) maintain a stable 16 seats from 2019 to 2022 and gain 2 more to 18 in 2022. The Zionist (secular) far right begins at low 5-6 seats due to many parties not crossing the 3,25% threshold. Then it improves to 18 between three parties in 2021 and 14 in 2022. Haredi/ far right and green/soc-dem/Arab are mutually exclusive meaning that of the two centrist blocs only Likud maintains coalition ability due to their willingness to enter into agreements with Haredi and far right parties as - paradoxically - the moderating factor. Contrary to popular perception Likud is not a radical party, they are simply so corrupt as to need to stay in power to avoid prosecution at all cost.

Now note how in the context of the previous four years and five elections the polling numbers of Likud reflect their vulnerability to another collapse of coalition government.

Israel politics 2023.jpg
When the decision to allow an attack is likely made in summer of 2023 Likud polling takes them below 30 seats while National Unity (Benny Gantz) is on a growing trend toward 30. With National Unity gaining 28 seats and Yesh Atid gaining 17 they need only 16 votes to form a relatively stable coalition with support of moderate leftist parties and Beiteinu (Lieberman) that would be brought together by their mutual strategic goals of purging Netanyahu and weakening political gains by radical zionist right. While the coalition would be marginal it would not be volatile because literally everyone who isn't in Netanyahu's clique wants to get rid of Netanyahu. The problem has been entirely the inability of the Israeli political system to put Likud out of power for sufficiently long so as to commit to necessary legal action.

And that's why Netanyahu allowed the attack to happen. He simply had no other option to gain sufficient support to not be blackmailed by insane right of Smotrich and Ben Gvir. And pay attention that his gamble paid off - after Gantz discredited himself by participation in Netanyahu's deliberately incompetent (so as to blame failures on coalition partners to tank their numbers) war cabinet National Unity fell in the polls below Likud which guarantees that Likud has first go at forming of government.

Now Netanyahu is pushing for a broader conflict because he is trying to partly address the inevitable fallout of the year of poorly managed war and partly to force a shift in perception in the US which will benefit Netanyahu's allies and benefactors - US Republicans. It is difficult to argue which is more important to Likud. I would argue that the latter because the last time Democrats held the trifecta (2008-2010) they were seen as generally favourable to Likud and Netanyahu, which is no longer the case after Donald Trump's presidency.

Netanyahu is desperate and cornered but he is an extremely skillfull, ruthless and utterly shameless political operative which is why he is winning the battle so far.

And this is why Iran is waiting this one out. Why help your enemy? Winning wars is about winning wars, not battles.

So Israel’s only hope is a Great War in the Mideast. Because at the current trajectory they face internal collapse. [...]

Israel has endured much worse in the past and they are in a significantly better position than in 1960s or 70s.

Israel could invade Lebanon, reoccupy territory south of Litani river, and decisively cripple Hezbollah for the next 5-10 years if Hezbollah reacted incorrectly to the latest provocations i.e. attacked Israel openly. Hezbollah prepared for defensive warfare, they won't be able to recapture lost territory. IDF can defend well so they need to quickly capture territory and establish forward defenses for prolonged conflict. It's not easy but it can be done.

And here we arrive at the controversial means with which Israel has attacked Hezbollah - they weren't smart, they were reckless and deliberatively provocative because the intention is to force Hezbollah into making the first move so as to not be viewed in US as the aggressor.

The operation wasn't intended to cripple Hebollah. It was an operation prepared for precisely this type of contingency where Israel needs an excuse to attack Hezbollah in Lebanon on its own terms.

Most importantly if IDF captures water sources they gain the upper hand in the war of attrition. ME is extremely water-stressed. If you control water you dictate terms including ceasefire or peace terms.

If Iran is on the verge of nuclear deterrence they won't care about losing much of Hezbollah either because Hezbollah has always been the less preferable deterrence option. Hezbollah being a Shia organisation has literally nowhere else to turn for support. Iran can use them as expendable pawns at will and has done so on numerous occasions. The current president of Iran (Pezeshkian) will provide a convenient scapegoat for any failures while moderating popular uproar.

Ideology is for people who need to be told what to think. Choices of those people are the object of politics. The subject of politics are the choices of people who can think for themselves. Most people have it backwards which is precisely why they have to be told what to think.

 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
A lot of your analysis is spot on but this part is confusing. Why is Netanyahu Iran's enemy? Most Israeli PM are just as fanatical against Iran, they just aren't as politically savvy as Netanyahu.

The answer lies in the last paragraph of the post you cited.

No Israeli PM is genuinely fanatical against Iran. Israel and Iran are like Democrats and Republicans. They are fake enemies because the business of both requires an enemy and it is always better to have a fake enemy than a real one.

Israel and Iran are two artificial states created by authoritarian or militaristic regimes:
  • Islamic Republic of Iran - a Shia (theocratic) regime imposed over a multi-cultural in former Persia (Iran)
  • (Zionist) State of Israel - a (currently: Revisionist) Zionist (nationalist) regime imposed over a multi-cultural society in former Palestine
are engaged in ideologically-driven warfare out of pure practical expediency.

Originally Israel and Iran were allies against both Arab nationalism and Sunni fundamentalism. Historically Jews were political proxies of Achaemenids to secure Judah as a base against Egypt. Originally Israel was most threatened by Arab nationalism and imperialistic Pan-Arabism of Egypt's Nasser. Israel lay on the way from Egypt to Syria which would be the reconstitution of traditional Egyptian empires - New Kingdom and Mamluk Sultanate. When Egypt turned inward after Nasser's death the resolution of Egypt-Israel conflict was a formality confirmed at Camp David. Syria needed an external enemy to sustain its own dictatorship which is why it persisted. Jordan bowed out in 1967 and remains hostile to problematic Palestinians.

Similarly after Baathist Iraq's collapse Iran's main problem are Sunni regimes of Arabian peninsula due to their influence stemming from Islam's two (of three) holy cities and oil revenues. Iran is mostly secure due to its geography - size and mountainous terrain. The main problem is entirely internal stemming from the nature of the current regime which stands in opposition to ethnically and culturally diverse Iranian society with a very long tradition of not being ruled by theocrats.

To sum up:
  • Iran is not Israel's enemy - Iran is Israel's boogeyman.
  • Israel is not Iran's enemy - Israel is the proxy for the United States.
For Israel Iran serves to perpetuate the illusion of a threat - both internally in Israel and externally in the US and Europe - so that
Israel can continue wartime policies during peacetime and pressure its allies with an imaginary existential threat.

Similarly for Iran Israel serves to establish a viable vector of retaliation against the US via its Israeli proxy so that in case of overt conflict against the US Iran has the option to hurt the US indirectly - similar to how Saddam used Israel in 1991. Since 2000s Israel also provides convenient excuse for Iranian imperial ambitions in the region.

The difference is that unlike all other Israeli leaders Netanyahu successfully built up Iranian threat as a tool of is influence in America. He did so in cooperation with the Republican establishment in the 1990s and 2000s at the time when US was invested in transforming Middle East to secure petrodollar in the 21st century. Netanyahu was as brazen as he was charismatic and he used Iranian boogeyman to catapult himself into a position of influence and power that exceeded even that of (equally megalomaniac) David Ben Gurion.

Netanyahu held the office of PM from 1996 to 1999 (3 years) and continuously from 2009 to 2021 (12 years) and from November 2022 while also serving as minister from 2002 to 2005 under Ariel Sharon. He has also been the chairman of Likud since 2005.

All of that based primarily on the illusion of Iran being an existential threat to Israel (and covertly supporting Hamas to be a convenient target after the failure of 2006).

This is why Netanyahu is a larger problem than other Israeli PM's using Iran as a boogeyman - he is the only one who has nothing else to land on if he falls from power. Iran is the only issue that is "his" to own because he is the only one with sufficient influence to see it through and it is the only major political issue that won't undermine is influence or base of support. For example he can't push for Jewish supermacy over the holy sites like Ben Gvir or Smotrich because he will alienate US Evangelical support. US Evangelicals don't love Jews but they were sold a specific fairytale which made them fall in love with Israel. That fairytale panders to their beliefs but veer of te script and they turn away.

Netanyahu is an extremely aggressive politician but he is a practical radical and not an ideological radical. He is not a Jewish fanatic or a Zionist fanatic but a Netanyahu fanatic. He is not an incorruptible zealot of a greater cause but an extremely efficient deal-maker and profit-seeker. And his life's work is Iranian Threat Productions inc. He understands it through and through because he is the master architect of this entire show and largely its leading star actor.

Whoever replaces him may want to exploit the Iranian angle but will not have the same influence with the fans of the show in the US and without them US can't credibly threaten Iran because it becomes a more rational actor. It took Trump - an unpredictable wild card - to tear up the Iranian deal (if Trump was a plant he was an Orthodox Jewish plant). I doubt an establishment Republican would do that because it would be too beneficial to keep it in place considering where strategic priorities lay at the time.

Nobody will believe radical Zionists because they despise Christians too much. Nobody in Likud has what it takes because Netanyahu stayed that long in power by ensuring that there is no internal competition. Nobody who works with Democrats will openly dangle Iranian threat because they understand the volatility of Democratic militarism and preferences of liberal Jews who back Democrats.

Remove Netanyahu and talk of war with Iran becomes just talk. Keep Netanyahu in power but increasingly weakened and cornered and even though he intended it to be just talk... desperate men seek desperate measures. Who needs a world with Netanyahu in prison? Probably everyone on Earth but I'll tell you who doesn't need it: the one man arguably in charge of Israel.
 

JJD1803

Junior Member
Registered Member
I highly disagree that Iran’s allies did the wrong thing by intervening in this war. It made strategic sense. Everyone knew back in October that a ground assault into Gaza was going to be a nightmare for the Israeli ground forces. Look up the previous battles Shujayya in Gaza city. It’s just one neighborhood in Gaza City and every time IOF forces enter there they struggle. Their ground forces can’t handle sustained urban warfare. This is why their current strategy makes no sense. They enter an area like Gaza City or Kahn Younis or Rafah take losses while destroying random buildings then withdraw. They gave up going after the tunnel network back in December. Which means even if they control the top ground they’ll still face ambushes and insurgent attacks. Which is a slow bleed. I say this to say Hezbollah saw this and made the right calculation to apply major pressure on Israel. It’s a war of attrition to exhaust Israel militarily,politically and economically. Nasrallah said this day one. They took the opportunity to turn the screws on Israel.

Only way Israel can do anything about the north is a full scale war which they cannot win. They are short of 10k men. They tried drafting the Haredi Jews but only a few hundred showed up. For a war with Hezbollah they’ll need to withdraw full from Gaza and the West Bank. Which they won’t do. A limited ground offensive will get beaten quickly. Haifa got hit last night and in the past Israel would have punched a massive ground operation into south Lebanon. But they aren’t doing it today. Why? They don’t have enough manpower. They have troops in Gaza and the West Bank. The forces they have in the border is too small for a push towards the Litani river.

Also this crisis Israel is facing is nothing like it faced in the 80s and 90s. This is the most expensive war in Israeli history. $100 billion. Their credit rating continues to take more hits which borrowing rates will get more expensive. The Port of Eliat declared bankruptcy. Tourism is down significantly as airline companies have cancelled flights to Israel until late next year. 40,000 Israeli small businesses have been closed since October 7th with 20,000 more closing by years end. This is unprecedented. And with Israel continuing to take fire from Lebanon,Yemen,Syria and likely Iran in the future it will only get worse. Haifa yesterday was struck. There were polls showing 80% of Israelis outside of Israel say they are never going to return. Israel now has about 10,000 wounded soldiers who the state will have to take care of which will be an another drain of resources. They also now have a massive mental health crisis going on right now which will have long term ramifications. And Israeli soldiers are suffering from PTSD while coming home with no jobs and more unstable situation. There is a reason why many in the Israeli security and intelligence establishment are panicking. They’ve admitted Israel lost the war and cannot defeat Hamas. They would prefer the war in Gaza to be over with an agreement to stop the fire coming from the North. And many want Israel to focus only on the West Bank. But this current Israeli government is doing everything possible to have the West Bank explode leading to a collapse of the Palestinian authority. Israel is in dangerous straits. They are being led by radicals who want more war and confrontation.
 

coolgod

Colonel
Registered Member
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Israeli president's denial goes further than official response – but it doesn't tally with background talks​


A wave of explosions hit pagers and walkie-talkies belonging to Hezbollah members last week, killing at least 37 people - including two children - and wounding about 3,000.
President Isaac Herzog's outright denial that Israel was behind the attacks on Hezbollah pagers and walkie-talkies goes further than the official Israel government response which, so far, has been to say nothing at all.

It's not unusual for
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to remain silent after major attacks on its enemies, and guilt is generally assumed by the absence of comment, but Herzog was definitive, saying he "rejects out of hand any connection to this or that source of operation".
lmao
 
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