Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and other Related Conflicts in the Middle East (read the rules in the first post)

_killuminati_

Senior Member
Registered Member
The spread of Israeli propaganda accounts to all corners of the internet has pushed me here. I hope the mods are wary of any accounts created post Oct 7 or created for mostly posting here.
Imagine being tasked to portray Israel in good light in this day and age.

Where were the ayssyrians, babylonians, persians, greeks & romans empires?
In middle east and europe.

israel is still around btw
Israel was missing between 70 - 1948 AD, as well as between Babylon and Romans (except as a temporary non-sovereign vassal of Seleucids).

In case you missed it, those three incidents prove Israel prevailing is not "heaven's mandate". In addition, the Jews attempted to rebuilt the 3rd Temple under Roman emperor Julian but the Galilee earthquake in 363 AD shattered it permanently. "Heaven's Mandate"? No. Sounds like.. "divine intervention".
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MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
I highly disagree that Iran’s allies did the wrong thing by intervening in this war. It made strategic sense.

Exactly the opposite is true.

Hamas is a managed threat cultivated by Mossad as a political counter to Fatah. Fatah was a problem because they formally agreed to a two-state solution along 1967 borders which became the foundation of Oslo accords. To prevent the formation of a Palestinian state Israel fostered Hamas (interestingly: as an Islamic jihadist organisation first, and Palestinian nationalist organisation second) as a "honest" option to Fatah's "collaborators" within the Palestinian Authority. This meant that Israel could then sabotage the negotiations by imposing unacceptable conditions to which Fatah would partly agree and which Hamas would reject on principle. This split the population sufficiently that Fatah could not govern alone which in turn meant that Palestinian autonomy had no path to legal sovereignty.

This is why Hamas could exist for so long and operate with such impunity despite having no credibility as a jihadist organisation and very little support among Arabs, as well as being listed as terrorists by Egypt due to Hamas' links with Muslim Brotherhood. This last thing is absolutely fundamental to understanding the true nature of Hamas because with Egypt's openly hostile attitude to Hamas it was impossible to maintain its presence in Gaza without help from Israel.

So for Israel to eliminate Hamas would be a net gain for everyone opposed to Israel. This is why any involvement in the conflict - whether explicitly or implicitly - on the side of Hamas was a strategic mistake. Israel would have to either fail to physically eliminate Hamas - which would be politically untenable in Israel - or it would remove a competitor for funds and attention.

The inevitable need for occupation of Gaza - which follows from Israel's intention to displace Gaza's population and annex the territory - meant that the reaction against Israel could be delayed to after Hamas was eliminated. It would force Israel to manage the entire show without external help which would skew the optics further against Israel as well as force them to justify being less effective despite lack of distractions.

Hezbollah, Houthis and other Shia forces have no obligation to help a Sunni force that is considered to be a bad faith actor. They reacted because they are not nearly as competent as their propaganda claims.

If there's one constant in Arab-Israeli wars it is that Arabs have always great propaganda that is always contradicted by their results. You're making the same mistake as if the previous 75 years taught you nothing.

Only way Israel can do anything about the north is a full scale war which they cannot win.

Israel can easily win the war against Hezbollah provided they go all in which is why there is such pressure from Netanyahu's faction. IDF is resisting the war only along political lines, not strategic ones. They understand the consequences so they oppose and support the operation based on their political stance in Israeli politics, not military assessment.

Objectively this is the best moment for Israel to attack Hezbollah precisely because it is the worst moment for Iran to become involved and without Iran Hezbollah is significantly weaker than it claims to be on paper.

Militarily Hezbollah is not self-sufficient and Iran has made sure of that because otherwise they would became to difficult to control and would no longer be useful as Iran's conventional deterrent. It would become similar to the Houthis and the Houthis while useful to Iran are at the same time a problem. For example Houthis' reckless campaign against shipping while not directly targeting Chinese trade it nevertheless impacted Chinese trade indirectly through economic and legal fallout which is problematic for Iran's relationship with China.

There is also one major drawback that emerged from Hezbollah's slow evolution from an underground irregular force that it was in 2006 into a state-level actor that it has become now. The closer Hezbollah is to peer warfare with Israel the easier it is for Israel to degrade and disrupt its operations, especially if Israel is given sufficient time to perform recon and strikes against key targets. And that is exactly what Hezbollah has done for the last year.

After 7 Oct game theory presented only two good solutions for Hezbollah - either stay out of the fight and hide its movements or attack as soon as possible with full potential. Anything in between worked to Israel's advantage and Hezbollah has spent a year doing just that.

Hamas was never the problem for Israel - as indicated above. Hamas was a convenient ploy to set Israel on a collision course with Hezbollah.

Furthermore Hezbollah is presently in an extremely precarious position in Lebanon having far less overt political support in the country than it is claimed in propaganda. Hamas has only 15 out of 128 seats in Lebanese parliament, and only two ministerial positions. Every other faction - including Shia party Amal - is hostile to Hezbollah. The only reason why Hezbollah maintains its current political position are the the internal divisions between Christian factions in Lebanon. If Christian factions cooperated then with help of Amal they could appeal for aid in removing Hezbollah from Lebanon. However as long as the individual factions are more interested in growing their own political and economic fiefs outside of the de facto failed Lebanese state structure Hezbollah is not threatened due to their military potential.

Israeli intervention in Lebanon, especially if Israel's western allies are involved - even if just politically - could provide the impulse to temporarily realign other factions against Hezbollah. In such scenario Israel takes over southern Lebanon and deals with militant Shias while the rest realigns itself to a new political architecture with significantly strengthened Christian position. That in turn will absorb Iran's attention as it will attempt to salvage its position in Lebanon (and Syria).

Yes there will be a high cost imposed on Israel as a consequence of their invasion but the entire year has been a trial run for that operation. Netanyahu is going full Hitler only with more preparation and because of that economic or political costs are of no importance while potential gains are of tremendous value. And they are by no means far fetched. If IDF chooses the correct strategy they have extremely high chances of success and all of that will be the fault of Shia factions which foolishly uncovered their cards too early in the game.

This is the most expensive war in Israeli history.

1948-49 and 1967-1973 were far more expensive in real terms but the gains changed the calculus. Netanyahu is hoping for the very same thing as this is his ticket to political immunity as a once-in-a century national hero. It's an all in game and likely has been from the very beginning.
 

_killuminati_

Senior Member
Registered Member
Haifa on fire. Damage over extensive area. #Hezbollah
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Haifa hospital parking lot tells you how much damage Hezbollah did

Suspected ballistic missile launches from Iraq and Yemen.

wtf

Totally ready for a new invasion. Regulars must shit scared.
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MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
Israel was missing between 70 - 1948 AD, as well as between Babylon and Romans (except as a temporary non-sovereign vassal of Seleucids).

That is not what happened.

The one undisputed benefit of Israel - which was established as a secular regime - is that we have access to proper research into history of the region not distorted by religious narratives whether Jewish or Islamic.

Kingdom of Israel with capital in Samaria was destroyed in 722BCE by the Neo-Assyrians.Many influential people fearing death or forced resettlement fled to the neighbouring Kingdom of Judah with capital in Jerusalem and there they influenced its religious and political development. Because Israel was significantly richer and more developed than Judah rulers of Judah styled themseves on its more prestigious northern neighbour and started to present their authority as continuation of Israeli tradition. The most prominent ruler was king Josiah (640-609BCE) who was responsible for instituting Israeli Yahwite monotheism as an official state cult. The Biblical account has its origin in Josiah's use of Yahwism as personal ideology. This is where the notion of united monarchy comes from. Josiah claimed the legacy of "king of Israel" in the same sense that Charlemagne claimed the legacy of "Roman emperor".

Kingdom of Judah was destroyed by Neo-Babylonians in 570BCE and its political and religious elite was forcibly resettled - hence "Babylonian captivity". However due to the nature of the relationship between Judah and the empire there already has been a Judean (not "Jewish") and Israeli (again: Samaritan, not "Jewish") presence. That diaspora was used by Cyrus I to create a satellite state in the form of Yehud medinata governed by a Persian satrap. This is the origin of "chosen people ruled by god where kings are a foreign concept not meant for the children of Israel.". This myth was created to reconcile Persian civic authority combined with "Jewish" religious authority. Similarly the idea of "Egyptian captivity" was created most likely to enforce a specific attitude in the newly created province - one that would secure control of a crucial geopolitical chokepoint between Egypt and Levant.

Yahwism was rebranded into "Judaism" and was imposed on the population of Judah as official state ideology but it didn't succeed which is why there were many revolts i.e. Maccabean revolt. This is also why Jews are so incredibly insular in their customs - the ideology was created specifically to prevent free exchange of ideas between population of Judah and more developed societies to the east and north.

This is also why all the Jewish revolts seem to align with the imperial interest of Parthian empire - the successor to Achaemenid Persia. And it almost worked except Rome was a peer to Persia and with existential interest in controlling Egypt (source of grain). This meant that Rome would not agree to any foreign entity controlling Palestine precisely because of its geopolitical potential vs Egypt. Judaism being anti-Egyptian and pro-Persian by design was therefore a persistent problem and this led Rome to destroy its institutional foundations.

From there came the diaspora and close to two thousand years of Rabbinical Judaism with is re-telling of what was already a political rather than historical narrative.

Modern Israel is a Frankenstein's monster created from mismatched scraps of tradition, history, myth and deliberate lie. It is also a secular nationalist creation and not a religious Messianic one. But it does serve exactly the same purpose as original "Israel" under the Achaemenids - except that this time it serves the Romans.

----

On an unrelated note - a similar discovery has recently been made with the history if Islam. The hypothesis is that original Islam was not the religion that it is now but rather a re-imagining of monotheist faiths, including Christianity and Judaism, at a period where religion was the primary political narrative. That re-imagining served to resolve the political crisis in the Middle East during the long-lasting war between Sassanian and Roman empires. In a way you can think of it as of Lenin's theory of communist revolution being presented as solution to capitalist/imperialist wars. It would aim to replace monotheist or quasi-monotheist rivalry with an syncretic worship of "one god" as an unifying principle.

It does provide a much better explanation for the unlikely and stunning success of the Rashidun Caliphate and the almost complete lack of archeoloical evidence for sieges and destruction of captured cities in the Levant. The Islamic story of the early conquests simply doesn't hold up. It's as filled with contradictions, if not more, than the story that Jews tell about themselves.

The shift in narrative comes with the change of power from Rashidun to Umayyad Caliphate which began to use Islam as a state ideology enforcing Arab supremacism. We know that Umayyads were ethnic chauvinists, broke the social promises of Islam to preserve their power as well as had a more predatory/parasitic attitude to the population. This ultimately led to the Abbasid revolution and the overthrow of Umayyads. Later Seljuk Turks will repeat the same error to enforce their power over conquered Abbassid caliphate which will lead to the Crusades.

Abbasids (Islamic Persia) returnd to a more tolerant and civilised approach to co-existence which is the source of the "golden age" but the Umayyad narrative about Islam's origins largely survived and the Rashidun idea of "community of believers in one god" was irrevocably replaced by "community of Muslim faithful". A major error all things considered since it is precisely the Umayyad changes to the doctrine - aimed at enforcing authorianism, chauvinism and ideologial obedience - that are responsible for all the present day failures of Islam.

Zionism and Islam have more in common than either is willing to accept.
 

_killuminati_

Senior Member
Registered Member
That is not what happened.

The one undisputed benefit of Israel - which was established as a secular regime
- is that we have access to proper research into history of the region not distorted by religious narratives whether Jewish or Islamic.

Kingdom of Israel with capital in Samaria was destroyed in 722BCE by the Neo-Assyrians.Many influential people fearing death or forced resettlement fled to the neighbouring Kingdom of Judah with capital in Jerusalem and there they influenced its religious and political development. Because Israel was significantly richer and more developed than Judah rulers of Judah styled themseves on its more prestigious northern neighbour and started to present their authority as continuation of Israeli tradition. The most prominent ruler was king Josiah (640-609BCE) who was responsible for instituting Israeli Yahwite monotheism as an official state cult. The Biblical account has its origin in Josiah's use of Yahwism as personal ideology. This is where the notion of united monarchy comes from. Josiah claimed the legacy of "king of Israel" in the same sense that Charlemagne claimed the legacy of "Roman emperor".

Kingdom of Judah was destroyed by Neo-Babylonians in 570BCE and its political and religious elite was forcibly resettled - hence "Babylonian captivity". However due to the nature of the relationship between Judah and the empire there already has been a Judean (not "Jewish") and Israeli (again: Samaritan, not "Jewish") presence. That diaspora was used by Cyrus I to create a satellite state in the form of Yehud medinata governed by a Persian satrap. This is the origin of "chosen people ruled by god where kings are a foreign concept not meant for the children of Israel.". This myth was created to reconcile Persian civic authority combined with "Jewish" religious authority. Similarly the idea of "Egyptian captivity" was created most likely to enforce a specific attitude in the newly created province - one that would secure control of a crucial geopolitical chokepoint between Egypt and Levant.

Yahwism was rebranded into "Judaism" and was imposed on the population of Judah as official state ideology but it didn't succeed which is why there were many revolts i.e. Maccabean revolt. This is also why Jews are so incredibly insular in their customs - the ideology was created specifically to prevent free exchange of ideas between population of Judah and more developed societies to the east and north.

This is also why all the Jewish revolts seem to align with the imperial interest of Parthian empire - the successor to Achaemenid Persia. And it almost worked except Rome was a peer to Persia and with existential interest in controlling Egypt (source of grain). This meant that Rome would not agree to any foreign entity controlling Palestine precisely because of its geopolitical potential vs Egypt. Judaism being anti-Egyptian and pro-Persian by design was therefore a persistent problem and this led Rome to destroy its institutional foundations.

From there came the diaspora and close to two thousand years of Rabbinical Judaism with is re-telling of what was already a political rather than historical narrative.

Modern Israel is a Frankenstein's monster created from mismatched scraps of tradition, history, myth and deliberate lie. It is also a secular nationalist creation and not a religious Messianic one. But it does serve exactly the same purpose as original "Israel" under the Achaemenids - except that this time it serves the Romans.

----

On an unrelated note - a similar discovery has recently been made with the history if Islam. The hypothesis is that original Islam was not the religion that it is now but rather a re-imagining of monotheist faiths, including Christianity and Judaism, at a period where religion was the primary political narrative. That re-imagining served to resolve the political crisis in the Middle East during the long-lasting war between Sassanian and Roman empires. In a way you can think of it as of Lenin's theory of communist revolution being presented as solution to capitalist/imperialist wars. It would aim to replace monotheist or quasi-monotheist rivalry with an syncretic worship of "one god" as an unifying principle.

It does provide a much better explanation for the unlikely and stunning success of the Rashidun Caliphate and the almost complete lack of archeoloical evidence for sieges and destruction of captured cities in the Levant. The Islamic story of the early conquests simply doesn't hold up. It's as filled with contradictions, if not more, than the story that Jews tell about themselves.

The shift in narrative comes with the change of power from Rashidun to Umayyad Caliphate which began to use Islam as a state ideology enforcing Arab supremacism. We know that Umayyads were ethnic chauvinists, broke the social promises of Islam to preserve their power as well as had a more predatory/parasitic attitude to the population. This ultimately led to the Abbasid revolution and the overthrow of Umayyads. Later Seljuk Turks will repeat the same error to enforce their power over conquered Abbassid caliphate which will lead to the Crusades.

Abbasids (Islamic Persia) returnd to a more tolerant and civilised approach to co-existence which is the source of the "golden age" but the Umayyad narrative about Islam's origins largely survived and the Rashidun idea of "community of believers in one god" was irrevocably replaced by "community of Muslim faithful". A major error all things considered since it is precisely the Umayyad changes to the doctrine - aimed at enforcing authorianism, chauvinism and ideologial obedience - that are responsible for all the present day failures of Islam.

Zionism and Islam have more in common than either is willing to accept.
Informative post, except the bold part.

Israel/Judea ceased to exist as a sovereign entity after the destruction of the 1st Temple. Since then it had always been a foreign province, direct vassal of non-Jewish/Israeli/Judean/Israelites, contrary to the comment I was responding to which said along the lines of "Israel will prevail cuz Heaven's Mandate".

And I can't believe you are actually writing 'Israel established as a secular regime' when it is entirely built upon Zionism which is a religious concept, not forgetting it's various other religious statutes.
 

sheogorath

Major
Registered Member
And I can't believe you are actually writing 'Israel established as a secular regime' when it is entirely built upon Zionism which is a religious concept, not forgetting it's various other religious statutes.

Zionism is weird in that its origins aren't really religious but a bunch ethnically jewish atheists using judaism as pretext for colonization and genocide. They aren't a theocracy in an on itself but do use religion as a cover for the shit they do, which is why they have no issue on beating up the anti-zionists ultraorthodox jews like the Haredim
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Will these Africans also have to be sterilised before they get residency?
Also, this is highly revealing in the manpower shortages of the IDF. I hazard a guess we’ll start seeing Ukrainians style press gangs if the Israeli conscripts have not already fled.

Probably unnecessary to sterilise them since with the IDF already massively struggling to equip its existing reservists, any newly formed migrant companies will probably end up with an equipment issue policy like this.


Their casualty rates will probably make Wagner penal legions look like Seal Team 6, so there shouldn’t be enough left alive after the coming wars to actually need for Israel to worry about.

Might be another one of those ‘clever’ Israeli plans to kill two birds with one stone by rounding up all the coloureds to send to die wasting Hamas and Hezbollah ammo so it manages to ethnically cleanse its own population of any ‘impure’ elements.
 

Minm

Junior Member
Registered Member
1948-49 and 1967-1973 were far more expensive in real terms but the gains changed the calculus. Netanyahu is hoping for the very same thing as this is his ticket to political immunity as a once-in-a century national hero. It's an all in game and likely has been from the very beginning.
While Israel isn't at its weakest point in its history, it is weakening. Since 1973 Israel has reached a peak in its power relative to its neighbours. As the global south develops its own military industries, the advantage of being an outpost of the west is declining. In the 1970s Israel's enemies would require supplies from the Soviet Union to keep fighting, which is easily disrupted. Today, Iran can supply from within the region and even Yemen can build their own weapons. High tech is freely available from China, not just from the west.

At this point, Israel has lost its reputation of invincibility. Once again, the Arabs and others would be able to defeat them, unless America and Europe props them up. In this situation, it's rather dangerous for Israel to lose its support in young people all over the west. Imagine a future 20 years from now in which America has failed to defeat China and there is another revolution in Egypt, while Turkey continues sliding into a more religious government. Suddenly Israel doesn't look so secure anymore.

Hezbollah and Hamas are keeping the fight alive, stopping Israel from becoming a normal country that is accepted by its Sunni Arab neighbours
 
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