Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and other Related Conflicts in the Middle East (read the rules in the first post)

LawLeadsToPeace

Senior Member
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Registered Member
Edit: I just saw another post with the same article, but I'll leave this post just in case somebody can't jump the paywall.

As for the Saudi's actual reaction and the status of the negotiation talks:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

First half:

U.S. Continues Push for Saudi-Israel Ties Even as War With Hamas Begins​

By
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
and
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Reporting from Washington and Riyadh, Saudi Arabia
Published Oct. 8, 2023 Updated Oct. 9, 2023, 8:19 a.m. ET

President Biden’s top aides scrambled on Sunday to reaffirm their commitment to the idea of
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
of diplomatic ties between Saudi Arabia and Israel, even as Israel prepares for the start of a full-scale war against Palestinian militants.

On several American talk shows, Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken cast normalization as a choice between regional peace and the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, the militant group in Gaza.

“It would really change the prospects of the entire region far into the future,” Mr. Blinken said on CBS News of Israel’s broadening of relations with Arab countries, including Saudi Arabia, the most powerful Sunni Muslim nation in the region. “Now, who’s opposed to that? Hamas,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, Iran. So, I think that speaks volumes. And there are really two paths before the region.”
Mr. Blinken added an important caveat, which was that the drive for a diplomatic deal between Israel and Saudi Arabia could not be a substitute for a two-state solution to address the needs of the Palestinians.

But American officials have been unable to make headway on that for decades. So in both the Trump and Biden administrations, a
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
in the Middle East has been promoting normalization between Israel and Arab nations, with Palestinian officials and representatives playing no real role in the talks.

The theory for some American and Israeli officials and Arab leaders was that such deals, in the form of the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, would help isolate and suppress the Palestinian issue, which they saw as an intractable problem. Jared Kushner, former President Donald J. Trump’s son-in-law and a White House adviser who helped forge the accords, was a main proponent of that thinking.

To critics, that has been the crux of the problem, and one reason the United States and Israel were blindsided by the Hamas attack on Saturday. The crowds of civilians in Gaza cheering the Hamas fighters underscored the extent of anti-Israel hostility among Palestinians — hostility that American, Israeli and Arab officials have tried to ignore for years as they pushed normalization talks and what the Biden administration has called “regional integration.”

“Prior to the Hamas attack on Israel, there was bipartisan agreement, shared by most of the U.S. foreign policy establishment, that the question of Palestine no longer matters in the Middle East,” said Nader Hashemi, a professor of Middle East politics at Georgetown University. He added that he believed Arab leaders have relayed that same message in private because they dislike how their citizens mobilize around Palestinian issues.
“The masses of Arabs and Muslims had a different view of this equation — but who in D.C. cares about them?” Mr. Hashemi said. “All of the assumptions that informed U.S. policy toward the Middle East have now been upended by recent events. The question of Palestine is now back on the top of the regional agenda and the world agenda. I think this was the goal of the Hamas attack.”

In recent months, Mr. Biden and his top aides have attempted to negotiate with both Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman of Saudi Arabia and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel a complex three-way normalization deal by the end of the year. The new war will
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, but U.S. officials have been telling Saudi and Israeli officials in calls over the weekend that they are hopeful the discussions can continue.

They are also watching Saudi reaction carefully and gauging whether Prince Mohammed might change his stance, especially if the Israeli military kills many Palestinian civilians in a Gaza offensive, which would ignite outrage across the Arab world.

On Saturday, after the Hamas assault, the Saudi Foreign Ministry released a statement that did not explicitly denounce the attack and instead laid the blame on Israel, saying that the Saudi government had repeatedly warned “of the dangers of the explosion of the situation as a result of the continued occupation, the deprivation of the Palestinian people and their legitimate rights and the repetition of systemic provocations against its sanctities.”

The statement took Mr. Biden and several of his top aides by surprise, people with knowledge of the events said, and it angered American lawmakers who have supported the negotiations.

One of those, Senator Lindsey Graham, Republican of South Carolina, said in an interview that he had spoken with a senior Saudi official on Saturday and said, “If you want a normal relationship with the United States, this is not a normal statement.”

“You don’t want to be in the cheering section with Iran and Hezbollah,” he told them, as he recounted on Sunday.
 
Last edited:

LawLeadsToPeace

Senior Member
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Registered Member
Second half:
Mr. Graham said an Israeli official told him on Sunday that Israel wants to continue the normalization process because it would be a way to weaken Iran, the main supporter of Hamas and Hezbollah, the Lebanese Shiite militant group that fought a war with Israel in 2006.

It is unclear whether Hamas carried out the attack in part to undermine the talks. A Hamas military commander did not cite the talks
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, though Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran are all opposed to any normalization with Israel.

Mr. Blinken said on CNN on Sunday that “in this specific instance, we have not yet seen evidence that Iran directed or was behind this particular attack, but there’s certainly a long relationship.”


On Saturday, in a phone call with Prince Faisal bin Farhan, the foreign minister of Saudi Arabia, Mr. Blinken said the kingdom should clearly condemn the attack, a State Department official said. But in a description of the call, the Saudi Foreign Ministry did not include any criticism of the attack or of Hamas, and said only generically that civilians should not be targeted and stressed “the need for all parties to respect international humanitarian law.”


Mohammed Shtayyeh, right, the Palestinian prime minister, met with Nayef bin Bandar al-Sudairi, Saudi Arabia’s ambassador to Palestine in September.

Saudi officials appear to be taking a wait-and-see stance before continuing with the normalization efforts. Dennis Ross, who helped form Middle East policy for several U.S. presidents, said in an interview that he had spoken to a Saudi official after the attack, and that “for the moment, it is all on hold.”

“There are two basic variables: the number of casualties and the atmosphere related to that, and second, if the Israelis come out of this looking like they have decimated Hamas as an organization,” he added. “The point is, in the next few weeks as Israel focuses on dealing with Hamas in Gaza — and whether it also faces Hezbollah in the north — the results may well determine whether the Saudis will want to go ahead.”
Martin Indyk, a former American ambassador to Israel, said the Israeli military response would complicate Prince Mohammed’s rapprochement with Israel.

The images on social media of an Israeli offensive will “exacerbate the anger in the Arab world and I think particularly in Saudi Arabia,” he said during a call with reporters on Saturday arranged by the Council on Foreign Relations. “This is going to be very hard for Mohammed bin Salman to control.”

The talks have so far centered on what Prince Mohammed is demanding from Mr. Biden: a
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, the building of a civilian nuclear program and access to more weapons. Although Prince Mohammed said in a Fox News interview last month that the Palestinian issue is “very important” and needs to be solved, he has not prioritized it in discussions with U.S. officials, including Mr. Blinken and Jake Sullivan, the White House national security adviser, American officials said.

For some experts, that is emblematic of the entire problem around these talks and the Abraham Accords. “While Jake Sullivan and Secretary Blinken have sold the accords as a magical formula for stability in the region, the only thing it will actually secure is strengthening — with an unprecedented U.S. security guarantee — an axis of dictatorships who will ally with Israel’s apartheid government and stay mum about the Palestinians,” said Sarah Leah Whitson, the executive director of the advocacy group Democracy for the Arab World Now. The group was founded by Jamal Khashoggi, the Washington Post columnist who was murdered by Saudi agents in 2018.

Although a wartime unity government in Israel would “be more able and more desperate to secure a deal with Saudi Arabia, it’s hard to imagine that even M.B.S.’ absolute rule can withstand moving forward with normalization now,” she said, using the initials of the Saudi prince. “It’s a good opportunity for the Biden team to reflect on their utterly failed approach to wheeling and dealing with autocrats as a road to stability in the Middle East.”

In Saudi Arabia, some analysts have been skeptical that Mr. Netanyahu’s right-wing government would grant enough concessions to the Palestinians to satisfy the Saudi leadership. With a war starting, that is even less likely now.

“The Kingdom is aware that the current extreme government in Israel cannot deliver on the issue of peace,” said Hesham Alghannam, a Saudi political scientist. In reality, Israel was not really ready to reach an agreement with the Palestinians that would give them the minimum of their needs.”

Abdulaziz Alghashian, a Saudi researcher who studies Saudi foreign policy toward Israel, said that any normalization agreements would not end the enmity of Arabs toward Israel as long as the Palestinian issue remains unresolved. “Israeli integration into the region won’t happen, ever, without a settlement,” he said. “And the way it’s going, quite frankly, it’s just going to be in a perpetual war there that’s going to spill over. So I don’t see it.”
 

LawLeadsToPeace

Senior Member
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Registered Member
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
However, you will not be able to access the Jerusalem Post, because it suffered a cyber attack and is currently offline.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
That is only one supposed site. Plus, that piece of news is significantly important, so I would expect other media outlets to report it as well. When we see several credible media outlets reporting it, then we will know that such news is true. Until then, as of now, it shouldn't be taken as a fact.
 

Stierlitz

Junior Member
Registered Member
Excerpts from Satanyahu's speech

— Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu: Hamas terrorists requested war and will face an all-out war

— Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu: A number of militants are still in our areas and we are working to eliminate them

— Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu: I call on opposition leaders to form an emergency government

— Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu: We want to secure international support so that we can move with a large margin of freedom (i.e. Asking for support from Israel's allies)

❌❗️ — Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu: Every place Hamas terrorists operates from will turn into ruin

⚡️ - BREAKING: “Hamas is ISIS and we will eliminate it in exactly the same manner that the enlightened world eliminated ISIS”

❌❗️ — Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu: We are working to fortify our borders with Lebanon and the West Bank

❌ — Israeli Prime-Minister Netanyahu: We have not seen such atrocities from ISIS. Children were executed and entire families were exterminated by Arab Terrorists.

There were atrocities that I will not describe here. Hamas is ISIS and we will destroy it as the world defeated ISIS

❌ — Israeli Prime-Minister Netanyahu: A number of Palestinian militants are still in our areas and we are working to eliminate them

❌ — Israeli Prime-Minister Netanyahu: We have tough days ahead of us and we are determined to win

______________________

#BREAKING
❌❗️ — Lebanese Hezbollah: The Islamic Resistance in Lebanon has attacked the Israeli Pranit and Avivim barracks with guided missiles and mortar shells
 

BoraTas

Captain
Registered Member
This is a surprise to me. Many believed Merkava was a tailor designed against shaped charge weapons. Especially with its size and weight, protection estimates on the internet were quite high. We are seeing it get penetrated rather easily by low-end things Hamas has access to. And it burns easily.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
Do anyone here have better understanding of the rockets/missiles in Hamas & Hezbollah's inventory?
If hezbollah enters war, i wish they target all israeli airbases,and has the invading troops inside gaza.
Actually, if Hezbollah wants to inflict real damage to Israel they will target its power plants. Take out a few of them and Israel goes dark. You know what happens when a modern economy suddenly goes without electricity..
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
This is a surprise to me. Many believed Merkava was a tailor designed against shaped charge weapons. Especially with its size and weight, protection estimates on the internet were quite high. We are seeing it get penetrated rather easily by low-end things Hamas has access to. And it burns easily.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Latest cope I've read is -- I kid you not -- that homemade RPGs fly too slowly to get picked up by Trophy.

WKhoq73.gif
 
Top