Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and other Related Conflicts in the Middle East (read the rules in the first post)

Just some articles in the last few weeks. So, they can't cope that Houthis aren't causing anything substantial, so they just "let them be".




No, instead what happened is that they clearly announced, to a whole world cockily, a huge multi-national operation, mobilized a bunch of vessels, and personnel, and went in to attack or pressure Houthis, without any plan, who then basically "deterred" them instead, and continued with their disruptions (but this time targeting Anglo ships too, for their stupid, useless posturing, not just Zionist), prompting the US to start begging and suing for peace next. These titles, for example, are after the US military hyperpower was deterred. The tone got different.






















By this point, NAFO Westoid 80 IQ retards would've already brought up how this is "hurting" Chyna too in cope, but not realizing that 1. China never claimed it was the world police or galactic hyper-empire like they do (that's not their main "selling" point). 2. Houthis said they do not target Chinese shipping. 3. China has pretty functional rail freight with Europe which now exploded in exports. 4. China is not already suffering from inflation, even without that, unlike them. Yeah, China is economically "hurt" slightly, but nowhere near and so comprehensively like them.

FriedRiceNSpice said:

Yes, I believe that our main point of contention lie in definitions (regarding extreme ethno-Nationalism and Fascism). I agree that Manifest destiny and Lebensraum are both good analogies to Zionist policy towards Gaza. I also agree to a certain extent that there are shocking parallels between Israel's actions in Gaza and Nazi plans for Eastern Europe, but as of today, I don't think Israeli actions have reached anywhere close to the worst crimes perpetuated by the Nazis. It is a great and extremely sad irony that the, "solution," to one genocide is on the verge of giving rise to another genocide. Likewise, I don't think the solution to the current problem should involve what sounds awfully close to yet another genocide (erasure of Israel from the map). A two-state solution is the most fair long-term solution I can think of. The priority is to prevent genocide, and if a two-state solution cannot be reached, the next best solution may just have to be moving the Palestinian population to neighboring countries (which would be neither just nor fair, but would at least save the Palestinian people). Yes, it would be just as justified to, for instance, move the Israeli people to a safe haven like the United States, but I don't think that scenario has any realistic chance of occurring in the foreseeable future. Israel may be opposed to a two-state solution, but there is absolutely no way Israel would accept any form of one-state solution outside of Israel having complete control over Gaza and the Palestinians either gone or completely subjugated.

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Formation of a single state that gives equal rights to all its citizens is neither a genocide nor "erasure of Israel from the map".

In regard to a potential 2 state solution, and reasoning about how Israel will have a hard time invading the Palestinian state;
1. Israel doesn't and hasn't cared about international backlash which there has been plenty of because it is backed, funded and armed by US and western powers. If you have the backing of the most powerful state, international backlash is moot. (see, banning news orgs, bombing aid, aid workers, relief workers, journalists, hospitals etc etc)
2. Israel hasn't followed UN mandates or any mandates for that matter, instead they say that UN has been infiltrated by antisemites and hamas. Again, US seems eager to discredit the UN and the Security Council in Israels' behalf as demonstrated by their insistence that Security Council decisions are nonbinding, threatening to and defunding UN organizations, going against ICC & ICJ decisions etc etc.
3. You agree that Israelis make lebensraum-esque claim to the lands the Palestinians currently occupy, their desire for sovereignty over that land will not diminish just because of a formation of a second state.
Unless there's some international coalition defending the Palestinians and keeping peace I do not trust the Israelis to somehow give Palestinians a state all of a sudden, which they've never seemed keen on in the first place.

Ethnic cleansing Palestinians from their land in some faux-humanitarian attempt to save the Palestinian peoples will embolden not only Israeli ethno-nationalists by handing them what they want, but other ethno-nationalists will realize that a killing project with genocidal intent is an internationally approved method of ethnic cleansing!

If we agree that Israelis are intent on genociding the Palestinians, which is internationally recognized as "the crime of all crimes" the solution isn't to give them what they want but to PUNISH them.

CaribouTruth said:

Formation of a single state that gives equal rights to all its citizens is neither a genocide nor "erasure of Israel from the map".

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I never equated a one-state solution with, "erasure of Israel from the map." Regarding a one-state solution, I wrote, "Israel may be opposed to a two-state solution, but there is absolutely no way Israel would accept any form of one-state solution outside of Israel having complete control over Gaza and the Palestinians either gone or completely subjugated." While your arguments against a two-state solution are valid, but in my opinion they are even more applicable to a one-state solution. How can you expect Israel to stand by giving Palestinians equal rights and continue to respect those rights, given their past history and ethno-Nationalist Zionist ideology? Would it be more difficult to enforce a two-state solution or a one-state solution? Is the barrier/cost of wrongdoing higher for Israel under a two-state solution or one-state solution? To enforce a one-state solution, you would need to essentially station peacekeeping forces throughout all of Israel, whereas for a two-state solution, you can just deploy peacekeepers to the borders between the two states. A one-state solution would be preferrable, but I just don't foresee any chance of success for it realistically. The level of mistrust and animosity between both sides are too high.

FriedRiceNSpice said:

Yes, I believe that our main point of contention lie in definitions (regarding extreme ethno-Nationalism and Fascism). I agree that Manifest destiny and Lebensraum are both good analogies to Zionist policy towards Gaza. I also agree to a certain extent that there are shocking parallels between Israel's actions in Gaza and Nazi plans for Eastern Europe, but as of today, I don't think Israeli actions have reached anywhere close to the worst crimes perpetuated by the Nazis. It is a great and extremely sad irony that the, "solution," to one genocide is on the verge of giving rise to another genocide. Likewise, I don't think the solution to the current problem should involve what sounds awfully close to yet another genocide (erasure of Israel from the map). A two-state solution is the most fair long-term solution I can think of. The priority is to prevent genocide, and if a two-state solution cannot be reached, the next best solution may just have to be moving the Palestinian population to neighboring countries (which would be neither just nor fair, but would at least save the Palestinian people). Yes, it would be just as justified to, for instance, move the Israeli people to a safe haven like the United States, but I don't think that scenario has any realistic chance of occurring in the foreseeable future. Israel may be opposed to a two-state solution, but there is absolutely no way Israel would accept any form of one-state solution outside of Israel having complete control over Gaza and the Palestinians either gone or completely subjugated.

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Obviously they would never agree, would you get an agreement from Nazi Germany to renounce war? Both you and I know two state in that manner is unviable. So it come down to your proposition of ethnically clean Palestinians or destroy Israeli regime. You for some reason love to apologize for Israel, given your history of distracting argument of its criticism (muh ethnic cleansing vs genocide despite already met legal definition) so you pick the former.

I say it is very possible to push back Israel once US is out of the picture, which is give or take 1 decade. A country like this cannot sustain itself in a blockade if any serious country challenge it. It all comes down to if Palestinians can survive this moment, and if they still have any will to fight after this disaster.

TK3600 said:

Obviously they would never agree, would you get an agreement from Nazi Germany to renounce war? Both you and I know two state in that manner is unviable. So it come down to your proposition of ethnically clean Palestinians or destroy Israeli regime. You for some reason love to apologize for Israel, given your history of distracting argument of its criticism (muh ethnic cleansing vs genocide despite already met legal definition) so you pick the former.

I say it is very possible to push back Israel once US is out of the picture, which is give or take 1 decade. A country like this cannot sustain itself in a blockade if any serious country challenge it. It all comes down to if Palestinians can survive this moment, and if they still have any will to fight after this disaster.

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I merely am trying to find the intersection between what is realistically possible and what is a just outcome. Previously, I mentioned that Israeli leaders should be sanctioned and international pressure applied for the leaders responsible to at a minimum step down and be branded war criminals (to be arrested should they ever step foot outside of Israel, possibly with exception of US). Pushing the US out of the picture is about as realistic as getting Nazi Germany to renounce war.

Going back to Nazi Germany, you could argue that the right thing to do was for the Western Allies and the USSR/Poland to declare war on Germany the instant German troops set foot in Czechoslovakia. Or at the last, for the USSR to attack the Nazis instead of partitioning Poland with them. Yet major powers never act for the sake of justice and what is right, they only act in pursuit of self-interest. No nation ever declared war on Germany in order to stop genocide. In fact, even when it was apparent that the Nazis were actively persecuting the Jews, few nations even opened their doors to Jewish refugees.

Petrolicious88 said:

UAE and all the petro gulf states… what would they do without oil… sandcastles maybe?

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What would Israel do without all the money they get from EU and US subsidies or money from selling weapons, training and spy equipment to every tinpot dictator and genocider out there?.

Move back to Brooklyn and Warsaw, maybe?.

Petrolicious88 said:

All that oil money has insulated their elites. Created high paying public servants that does zero work. It screws with economy by making other industries non competitive. And it creates a comfortable sense of entitlement that expects the state to hand out oil dividends per citizen.

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Can say exactly the same about the Israelis considering how they used palestinians and ethiopian jews as slave labor, to the point of having proposals of "importing" indians to fill the gaps after kicking out most palestinians. And lets not talk about the entitlement for the mere fact of existing.

FriedRiceNSpice said:

Two state solution is the only viable solution for long term peace in the region.

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It is only viable if Israel returns all the land they have stolen and occupied since 1967 through the that mini SS-esque organizations of settlers. Which won't happen because they hold a big chunk of power within the Israeli and part of the point behind settlements is to make the two-state solution difficult if not imposible by turning Palestinian land into disconnected enclaves that look like swiss cheese.

And those people won't leave willingly, they would rather execute every Palestinian in the area first. Wouldn't be the first time

FriedRiceNSpice said:

. Or at the last, for the USSR to attack the Nazis instead of partitioning Poland with them. Yet major powers never act for the sake of justice and what is right, they only act in pursuit of self-interest.

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The USSR did try to form a coalition with France and the UK to premptively attack Germany since 1935. It was France and the UK that dragged their feet and reneged on multiple defense treaties to cater to the Nazis and threw Czechoslovakia under the bus without even telling the Soviet Union about it, forcing them into Molotov-Ribbentrop. I mean, the Soviets were helping fight the nazi-supported troops of Franco in Spain.

sheogorath said:

The USSR did try to form a coalition with France and the UK to premptively attack Germany since 1935. It was France and the UK that dragged their feet and reneged on multiple defense treaties to cater to the Nazis and threw Czechoslovakia under the bus without even telling the Soviet Union about it, forcing them into Molotov-Ribbentrop.

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Yep, even the Italians were opposed to Nazi expansionism and wanted to join a coalition against the Nazis, but the British and French ultimately opted out. The irony.

The only democracy in the middle east or something

sheogorath said:

What would Israel do without all the money they get from EU and US subsidies or money from selling weapons, training and spy equipment to every tinpot dictator and genocider out there?.

Move back to Brooklyn and Warsaw, maybe?.


Can say exactly the same about the Israelis considering how they used palestinians and ethiopian jews as slave labor, to the point of having proposals of "importing" indians to fill the gaps after kicking out most palestinians. And lets not talk about the entitlement for the mere fact of existing.

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Is the economic success of Israel entirely dependent on foreign support. Is the economic success of some Muslim countries largely dependent on oil/gas. See the difference. Look at the standard of living between Arabic countries with oil money and those without.

I can think of at least 2 dozen Israeli tech companies that are globally competitive. Can’t think of that many from the entire Arabic world in the Middle East. 40-70% of the revenues still come gas oil/gas.

They sat on a pot of gold for the last 70 years. What did they do with it besides building fancy shopping malls and buying more Ferraris for their princes.

What keeps MsB up at night is what happens if the world transitions away from oil. What value do you bring? They panicking and asking China for money to help build out the NEOM.

FriedRiceNSpice said:

I merely am trying to find the intersection between what is realistically possible and what is a just outcome. Previously, I mentioned that Israeli leaders should be sanctioned and international pressure applied for the leaders responsible to at a minimum step down and be branded war criminals (to be arrested should they ever step foot outside of Israel, possibly with exception of US). Pushing the US out of the picture is about as realistic as getting Nazi Germany to renounce war.

Going back to Nazi Germany, you could argue that the right thing to do was for the Western Allies and the USSR/Poland to declare war on Germany the instant German troops set foot in Czechoslovakia. Or at the last, for the USSR to attack the Nazis instead of partitioning Poland with them. Yet major powers never act for the sake of justice and what is right, they only act in pursuit of self-interest. No nation ever declared war on Germany in order to stop genocide. In fact, even when it was apparent that the Nazis were actively persecuting the Jews, few nations even opened their doors to Jewish refugees.

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Of all the realistic solutions, you picked status quo two state solution or genocide. Among the two even genocide is a more realistic solution than status quo. Unfortunate for Israel, Hamas might outlast innocent palestinians and continue operation after genocide.

I will be honest, if Germany stopped at Czech and just quietly kill all Jews, they can get away with it. Israel if play their card perfectly they too can get away. That begs the question, why do I think Palestinians stand any chance? I think Israel will be defeated by hubris the same way Germany was. They will not play their card perfectly. They will not stop at Gaza, their ambition is greater. Eventually they will bite more than they can chew and lose. Powers will put it down by necessity, not out of good will. Palestinian may be all dead, or lose all spine. But if they were not, they have a chance. The moment US is out (in 10 years), Israel lose its 'immortality'. From there they are just a normal regional power with more enemy than friends.


I dont believe the good always prevail, but evil will always lose. Not because of divine will. Evil is self destructive.