Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and other Related Conflicts in the Middle East (read the rules in the first post)

TK3600

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
RottenPanzer said:
Sorry but i had to disagree on this part, while using realist pov is certainly understandable on the Iran hostility towards Israel. But, in my opinion, Iran should be singled out as a non-rational actor in the International stage, Iran extremely emphasized its Constructivist pov with its unwavering support towards Hezbollah and Hamas. It's commitment towards this purely religious struggle is due to it trying become the centre for its own branch of Islam in the world.

It's capitalisation of Saudi Arabia as in bed with much of the western aligned countries further vindicate its own position. While i don't rule out the possibility of just trying to increase geopolitical and hegemonic power like that, but i argued that for exclusively Israel's case Iran is a non-rational actor on this case.
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US is also a non-rational actor with its unwavering support toward Israeli proxy, even to its detriment. It is a matter of perspective.
 
M

Minm

Junior Member
Registered Member
RottenPanzer said:
Sorry but i had to disagree on this part, while using realist pov is certainly understandable on the Iran hostility towards Israel. But, in my opinion, Iran should be singled out as a non-rational actor in the International stage, Iran extremely emphasized its Constructivist pov with its unwavering support towards Hezbollah and Hamas. It's commitment towards this purely religious struggle is due to it trying become the centre for its own branch of Islam in the world.

It's capitalisation of Saudi Arabia as in bed with much of the western aligned countries further vindicate its own position. While i don't rule out the possibility of just trying to increase geopolitical and hegemonic power like that, but i argued that for exclusively Israel's case Iran is a non-rational actor on this case.
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The Islamic Revolution itself was not rational, but religious, but it was driven by the masses. The Iranian government however has been pretty rational. They cooperated with Israel when attacking Saddam's nuclear weapons program during the Iraqi invasion of Iran.

Ever since the war, they've created a Shiite sphere of influence for themselves and have become one of the most important leaders of Islam alongside Saudi Arabia precisely because of their support for the Palestinians/Hamas. In the same time, "rational" Egypt has made peace with Israel and lost its leadership role.

Hezbollah is actually partially controlled from Tehran, even though they have agency themselves. Supporting them is an insurance and power projection tool and also very rational. It would be highly irrational to not build up deterrence against an American invasion, given what has happened in the region. The fact that you can deter America by threatening Israel just shows the irrational commitment of the US to Israel
 
H

H2O

Junior Member
Registered Member
Over 50 ships in the Med. :oops: There's no way this is about Gaza. I'm guessing this will be about taking out Syria and Lebanon. They're hoping for a quick war but I can't see it that way as you need boots on the ground; a lot more boots.

Source:
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30OCT2023 updated map of US Navy and Allies in the Mediterranean and Red Sea.

Corrections: Added specific location of USS Mesa Verde as it is doing disaggregated ops in Eastern Mediterranean. USS Laboon did not cross the straight of Gibraltar yesterday tracker code was for USS Philippine Sea. Corrected minor typos Updated all sources used Changes since yesterday USNS William McLean (T-AKE 12) is en route to join USNS Medgar Evers in the Eastern Mediterranean. ITS Paolo Thaon di Revel (P-430) A San Giorgio class amphibious transport dock announced as getting deployed to Eastern Mediterranean IKE CSG traveling off the Tunisian Coast. Warships from the following countries underway or deployed in the Mediterranean currently. Does not include vessels currently partaking in various naval exercises such as Dynamic Mariner 23 and Operations such as Operation Irini.


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G

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Minm said:
Ever since the war, they've created a Shiite sphere of influence for themselves and have become one of the most important leaders of Islam alongside Saudi Arabia precisely because of their support for the Palestinians/Hamas. In the same time, "rational" Egypt has made peace with Israel and lost its leadership role.
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Iran is not a backer of Hamas. Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood. Their closest sponsors are Qatar and Turkey. They have a bad relation with the current Egyptian leadership, since the current military led Egyptian government got back into power after kicking the Muslim Brotherhood government there out. The Muslim Brotherhood got into power in Egypt after US pressure into holding elections after the "Arab Spring". US President Obama was basically responsible for the Muslim Brotherhood getting into power in Egypt.

Israel themselves initially fostered the growth of Hamas to split the Palestinian leadership and weaken the PLO.

In the Syrian "civil war" Hezbollah, a Shia militia, was backing the Syrian government while Hamas, which is Suni, was on the side of the rebels against the government. Hamas fighters in Syria were flown into Israeli hospitals to be treated. The conflict in Syria basically pitted on one side the Syrian government, Iran, Hezbollah, Russia, against the Syrian rebels, Qatar, Hamas, Saudi Arabia, Al-Qaeda, the US, Turkey, Chechen and East Turkestan rebels.

Trying to claim Hamas is some sort of Iranian puppet is just totally bogus. The US pulled the same bogus argument when they claimed Saddam Hussein was harboring Al-Qaeda as an excuse to invade Iraq after 9/11.
 
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FriedButter

FriedButter

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Israeli ministry proposes transferring Gaza civilians to Egypt’s Sinai​

JERUSALEM — An Israeli government ministry has drafted a wartime proposal to transfer the Gaza Strip’s 2.3 million people to Egypt’s Sinai peninsula, drawing condemnation from the Palestinians and worsening tensions with Cairo.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s office played down the report compiled by the Intelligence Ministry as a hypothetical exercise — a “concept paper.” But its conclusions deepened long-standing Egyptian fears that Israel wants to make Gaza into Egypt’s problem, and revived for Palestinians memories of their greatest trauma — the uprooting of hundreds of thousands of people who fled or were forced from their homes during the fighting surrounding Israel’s creation in 1948.

“We are against transfer to any place, in any form, and we consider it a red line that we will not allow to be crossed,” Nabil Abu Rudeineh, spokesman for Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, said of the report. “What happened in 1948 will not be allowed to happen again.”

A mass displacement, Abu Rudeineh said, would be “tantamount to declaring a new war.”
So far more than 8,000 Palestinians, the vast majority of them civilians, have been killed since Israel went to war against Hamas after its Oct. 7 attack.

The document is dated Oct. 13, six days after Hamas militants killed more than 1,400 people in southern Israel and took over 240 hostage in an attack that provoked a devastating Israeli war in Gaza. It was first published by Sicha Mekomit, a local news site.

In its report, the Intelligence Ministry — a junior ministry that conducts research but does not set policy — offered three alternatives “to effect a significant change in the civilian reality in the Gaza Strip in light of the Hamas crimes that led to the Sword of Iron war.”

The document’s authors deem this alternative to be the most desirable for Israel’s security.

The document proposes moving Gaza’s civilian population to tent cities in northern Sinai, then building permanent cities and an undefined humanitarian corridor. A security zone would be established inside Israel to block the displaced Palestinians from entering. The report did not say what would become of Gaza once its population is cleared out.

Egypt’s Foreign Ministry did not immediately respond to a request for comment on the report. But Egypt has made clear throughout this latest war that it does not want to take in a wave of Palestinian refugees.

Egypt has long feared that Israel wants to force a permanent expulsion of Palestinians into its territory, as happened during the war surrounding Israel’s independence. Egypt ruled Gaza between 1948 and 1967, when Israel captured the territory, along with the West Bank and east Jerusalem. The vast majority of Gaza’s population are the descendants of Palestinian refugees uprooted from what is now Israel.

Egypt’s president, Abdel Fattah El-Sissi, has said a mass influx of refugees from Gaza would eliminate the Palestinian nationalist cause. It would also risk bringing militants into Sinai, where they might launch attacks on Israel, he said. That would endanger the countries’ 1979 peace treaty. He proposed that Israel instead house Palestinians in its Negev Desert, which neighbors the Gaza Strip, until it ends its military operations.

Yoel Guzansky, a senior fellow at the Institute for National Security Studies in Tel Aviv, said the paper threatened to damage relations with a key partner.

“If this paper is true, this is a grave mistake. It might cause a strategic rift between Israel and Egypt,” said Guzansky, who said he has consulted for the ministry in the past. “I see it either as ignorance or someone who wants to negatively affect Israel-Egypt relations, which are very important at this stage.”

Egypt is a valuable partner that cooperates behind the scenes with Israel, he said. If it is seen as overtly assisting an Israeli plan like this, especially involving the Palestinians, it could be “devastating to its stability.”

Egypt would not necessarily be the Palestinian refugees’ last stop. The document speaks about Egypt, Turkey, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates supporting the plan either financially, or by taking in uprooted residents of Gaza as refugees and in the long term as citizens. Canada’s “lenient” immigration practices also make it a potential resettlement target, the document adds.

At first glance, this proposal “is liable to be complicated in terms of international legitimacy,” the document acknowledges. “In our assessment, fighting after the population is evacuated would lead to fewer civilian casualties compared to what could be expected if the population were to remain.”

An Israeli official familiar with the document said it isn’t binding and that there was no substantive discussion of it with security officials. Netanyahu’s office called it a “concept paper, the likes of which are prepared at all levels of the government and its security agencies.”

“The issue of the ‘day after’ has not been discussed in any official forum in Israel, which is focused at this time on destroying the governing and military capabilities of Hamas,” the prime minister’s office said.

The document dismisses the two other options: reinstating the West Bank-based Palestinian Authority as the sovereign in Gaza, or supporting a local regime. Among other reasons, it rejects them as unable to deter attacks on Israel.

The reinstatement of the Palestinian Authority, which was ejected from Gaza after a weeklong 2007 war that put Hamas in power, would be “an unprecedented victory of the Palestinian national movement, a victory that will claim the lives of thousands of Israeli civilians and soldiers, and does not safeguard Israel’s security,” the document says.
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Canada’s “lenient” immigration practices also make it a potential resettlement target, the document adds.
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