Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and other Related Conflicts in the Middle East (read the rules in the first post)

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
Air power means nothing against insurgencies with reliable overland resupply from outside powers and/or nearly unlimited room to retreat. There really is not any historical precedent for a COIN operation of this scale being done in an area so small and blocked off as Gaza. I would strongly recommend against making comparisons to things like Vietnam or Afghanistan until at least a few weeks after the operation has started.

Many people accuse the Israel leadership of hot headed decision making, which I think has some basis. However, I do not understand how many of these same people then chastise the IDF for not having already rushed in within days of the attack. Is it bad to rush in like Lebanon, or is it bad to wait and set up sustainment infrastructure and a viable plan before going in? It can't be both.
Well that's cuz you might be talking with multiple people who have multiple opinions??

Waiting is obviously much smarter than rushing in and ending up like the Robotino bois.

As I've stated before, ideally for Israel, they just deescalate without an invasion. Israelis are understandably angry due to the acts of war committed on them. By now having killed x amount of Palestinians, revenge can be declared and the status quo can be resumed. But to invade Palestine in force, will immediately trigger a bigger war, and trying to hide behind US is an excellent way for Israel's enemies to start getting very powerful equipment and intel.

Remains to see what Israel will do.
 

aqh

Junior Member
Registered Member
When the IDF goes in they will face thousands of ready fighters who know the lay of the land better than them. They will be forced to use 155 arty munitions and after a while they will run out due to US munitions stocks being empty. They then will be forced to go face to face house to house where there is an IED on every crevice and corner and they will face relentless international pressure. They will have thousands of casualties . In short wait a year and you will the see the evil apartheid state much weakened.
 
D

Deleted member 24525

Guest
They will have thousands of casualties
Yes they will. Everyone expects this.
They will be forced to use 155 arty munitions and after a while they will run out due to US munitions stocks being empty..
Israel has uncontested air control over Gaza. In terms of firepower it can use basically whatever gravity bombs can fit on its jets. We already see this now wherein they have been able to sustain an extremely intense tempo of bombing by using cheaper unguided bombs. If they had been using standoffs for everything they would have run out by now. I really can't emphasize the air power factor enough because in the wake of the russo ukranian war it's easy to forget how decisive it can be when one side can actually use its planes in a close support capacity.


@Biscuits I do think Hezbollah will probably get involved but it will be on the offensive this time so it's unlikely they can do much other than fix a certain amount of IDF forces north. Beyond this I do not see what actors have both the capability and motive to get involved. It's a real possibility the Russians would aid Israel's enemies if they could but their limited war production is focused elsewhere indefinitely. Why do you view it as likely that China would start engaging in proxy wars now if it could?
 
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Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
@Biscuits I do think Hezbollah will probably get involved but it will be on the offensive this time so it's unlikely they can do much other than fix a certain amount of IDF forces north. Beyond this I do not see what actors have both the capability and motive to get involved. It's a real possibility the Russians would aid Israel's enemies if they could but their limited war production is focused elsewhere indefinitely. Why do you view it as likely that China would start engaging in proxy wars now if it could?
It all depends on if US stays put or not. If US involves, pushing them into a quagmire automatically becomes a big prize.
 

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
Evidence is now emerging that up to half the Israelis killed were combatants; that Israeli forces were responsible for some of their own civilian deaths; and that Tel Aviv disseminated false ‘Hamas atrocities’ stories to justify its devastating air assault on Palestinian civilians in Gaza

Two weeks after the Hamas breakout assault on Israel on 7 October, a clearer picture of what happened – who died, and who killed – is now beginning to emerge.

Instead of the wholescale massacre of civilians claimed by Israel, incomplete figures published by the Hebrew newspaper Haaretz show that almost half the Israelis killed that day were in fact combatants - soldiers or police.

In the interim, two weeks of blanket western media reporting that Hamas allegedly killed around 1,400 Israeli civilians during its 7 October military attack has served to inflame emotions and create the climate for Israel’s unconstrained destruction of the Gaza Strip and its civilian population.

Accounts of the Israeli death toll have been filtered and shaped to suggest that a wholesale civilian massacre occurred that day, with babies, children, and women the main targets of a terror attack.

Now, detailed statistics on the casualties released by the Israeli daily Haaretz paint a starkly different picture. As of 23 October, the news outlet has released information on 683 Israelis killed during the Hamas-led offensive, including their names and locations of their deaths on 7 October.

Of these, 331 casualties – or 48.4 percent - have been confirmed to be soldiers and police officers, many of them female. Another 13 are described as rescue service members, and the remaining 339 are ostensibly considered to be civilians.

While this list is not comprehensive and only accounts for roughly half of Israel’s stated death toll, almost half of those killed in the melee are clearly identified as Israeli combatants.

There are also so far no recorded deaths of children under the age of three, which throws into question the Israeli narrative that babies were targeted by Palestinian resistance fighters. Of the 683 total casualties reported thus far, seven were between the ages of 4 and 7, and nine between the ages of 10 and 17. The remaining 667 casualties appear to be adults.

The numbers and proportion of Palestinian civilians and children among those killed by Israeli bombardment over the past two weeks – over 5,791 killed, including 2,360 children and 1,292 women, and more than 18,000 injured - are far higher than any of these Israeli figures from the events of 7 October.

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There's a Persian acquaintance of mine, who's a very pro-Shah/Israel supporter that was in anguish in what's happening in the Middle East for all the wrong reasons that I don't want to get into. He said to me recently that there's a CLEAR EVIDENCE RELEASED BY ISRAEL that support a single baby being beheaded. I listened to what he said and I asked him point blank, with a hint of strong annoyance and asked: Does that then justify what's happening with the civilians being killed along with babies on the Palestinian side? What's the difference between a decapitated baby from a knife to being decapitated from a 500 lb missile?
 

FriedButter

Colonel
Registered Member
It all depends on if US stays put or not. If US involves, pushing them into a quagmire automatically becomes a big prize.

China is already kinda participating in the proxy war in an indirect way. There isn’t really a reason for China to directly join when they can just sell parts to Iran who assembles the components and flys it over to some airfield in Syria. Similar to I think it was NYT who posted an article about a Ukrainian complaining that Chinese vendors would say we support Ukraine and then find the Russians using the exact same components.
 

james smith esq

Senior Member
Registered Member
I feel such pity for the Palestinian people. They’ve been abused, exploited, and neglected for so long, but their suffering will see no end.

Like the Kurds, the Yazidis, and so many indigenous and minority ethnicities, worldwide, they and their concerns really just don’t matter to anyone but themselves.

So, now, in a desperate expression of their frustration and anger at the, never-ending, injustices they’re subjected to, they commit a homicidal act against their perceived oppressor that is simultaneously suicidal act that brings even further suffering upon themselves: all, in a futile attempt to evoke an effective sympathetic response from a world that just doesn’t really care about them.

This isn’t the first historical occurrence of this nature, and, it, probably, won’t be the last.
 

Minm

Junior Member
Registered Member
Evidence is now emerging that up to half the Israelis killed were combatants; that Israeli forces were responsible for some of their own civilian deaths; and that Tel Aviv disseminated false ‘Hamas atrocities’ stories to justify its devastating air assault on Palestinian civilians in Gaza

Two weeks after the Hamas breakout assault on Israel on 7 October, a clearer picture of what happened – who died, and who killed – is now beginning to emerge.

Instead of the wholescale massacre of civilians claimed by Israel, incomplete figures published by the Hebrew newspaper Haaretz show that almost half the Israelis killed that day were in fact combatants - soldiers or police.

In the interim, two weeks of blanket western media reporting that Hamas allegedly killed around 1,400 Israeli civilians during its 7 October military attack has served to inflame emotions and create the climate for Israel’s unconstrained destruction of the Gaza Strip and its civilian population.

Accounts of the Israeli death toll have been filtered and shaped to suggest that a wholesale civilian massacre occurred that day, with babies, children, and women the main targets of a terror attack.

Now, detailed statistics on the casualties released by the Israeli daily Haaretz paint a starkly different picture. As of 23 October, the news outlet has released information on 683 Israelis killed during the Hamas-led offensive, including their names and locations of their deaths on 7 October.

Of these, 331 casualties – or 48.4 percent - have been confirmed to be soldiers and police officers, many of them female. Another 13 are described as rescue service members, and the remaining 339 are ostensibly considered to be civilians.

While this list is not comprehensive and only accounts for roughly half of Israel’s stated death toll, almost half of those killed in the melee are clearly identified as Israeli combatants.

There are also so far no recorded deaths of children under the age of three, which throws into question the Israeli narrative that babies were targeted by Palestinian resistance fighters. Of the 683 total casualties reported thus far, seven were between the ages of 4 and 7, and nine between the ages of 10 and 17. The remaining 667 casualties appear to be adults.

The numbers and proportion of Palestinian civilians and children among those killed by Israeli bombardment over the past two weeks – over 5,791 killed, including 2,360 children and 1,292 women, and more than 18,000 injured - are far higher than any of these Israeli figures from the events of 7 October.

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This is the original source from haaretz:
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It would be very easy to prove that babies were killed, just show the pictures and videos to a journalist that can be believed to be objective. If there are no pictures, it didn't happen.
 
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sheogorath

Major
Registered Member
Is it bad to rush in like Lebanon, or is it bad to wait and set up sustainment infrastructure and a viable plan before going in?

Pretty sure that there is no really a plan for sustainment considering the objective seems to be ethnic cleansing of the area and reannexation of the strip, with the US running cover if any neighbor gets too uppity at the prospect of being forced to receive 2 millions of Palestinians plus back up if Hezbollah goes all in as well, which would mean a two front conflict.

Thing is, seeing the latest spat of attacks on US bases in the region, even the US might be overstretching their goals as well, not just Israel
 
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