Israeli Military Says Missile Struck Warship Instead of Drone

FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
Here's my two cents :)

1. The Egyptian craft was spying on the Israeli navy performance

2. It was destroyed in same type of scenario as the USS Liberty

3. How on earth did Hezbullah manage to get the missile close enough
to shore without Israel's much vaunted UAV's finding out ?

4. Which means Hezbullah already had the asset in place so they
predicted israeli behaviour pretty well please see article below

Robert Fisk: Hizbollah's response reveals months of planning

If Lebanese dislike Hizbollah, they hate Israelis

By Robert Fisk

07/16/06 "The Independent" -- -It will be called the massacre of Marwaheen. All the civilians killed by the Israelis had been ordered to abandon their homes in the border village by the Israelis themselves a few hours earlier. Leave, they were told by loudspeaker; and leave they did, 20 of them in a convoy of civilian cars. That's when the Israeli jets arrived to bomb them, killing 20 Lebanese, at least nine of them children. The local fire brigade could not put out the fires as they all burned alive in the inferno. Another "terrorist" target had been eliminated.

Yesterday, the Israelis even produced more "terrorist" targets - petrol stations in the Bekaa Valley all the way up to the frontier city of Hermel in northern Lebanon and another series of bridges on one of the few escape routes to Damascus, this time between Chtaura and the border village of Masnaa. Lebanon, as usual, was paying the price for the Hizbollah-Israeli conflict - as Hizbollah no doubt calculated they would when they crossed the Israeli frontier on Wednesday and captured two Israeli soldiers close to Marwaheen.

But who is really winning the war? Not Lebanon, you may say, with its more than 90 civilian dead and its infrastructure steadily destroyed in hundreds of Israeli air raids. But is Israel winning? Friday night's missile attack on an Israeli warship off the coast of Lebanon suggests otherwise. Four Israeli sailors were killed, two of them hurled into the sea when a tele-guided Iranian-made missile smashed into their Hetz-class gunboat just off Beirut at dusk. Those Lebanese who had endured the fire of Israeli gunboats on the coastal highway over many years were elated. They may not have liked Hizbollah - but they hated the Israelis.

Only now, however, is a truer picture emerging of the battle for southern Lebanon and it is a fascinating, frightening tale. The original border crossing, the capture of the two soldiers and the killing of three others was planned, according to Hassan Nasrallah, the Hizbollah leader who escaped assassination by the Israelis on Friday evening, more than five months ago. And Friday's missile attack on the Israeli gunboat was not the last-minute inspiration of a Hizbollah member who just happened to see the warship.

It now appears clear that the Hizbollah leadership - Nasrallah used to be the organisation's military commander in southern Lebanon - thought carefully through the effects of their border crossing, relying on the cruelty of Israel's response to quell any criticism of their action within Lebanon. They were right in their planning. The Israeli retaliation was even crueller than some Hizbollah leaders imagined, and the Lebanese quickly silenced all criticism of the guerrilla movement.

Hizbollah had presumed the Israelis would cross into Lebanon after the capture of the two soldiers and they blew up the first Israeli Merkava tank when it was only 35 feet inside the country. All four Israeli crewmen were killed and the Israeli army moved no further forward. The long-range Iranian-made missiles which later exploded on Haifa had been preceded only a few weeks ago by a pilotless Hizbollah drone aircraft which surveyed northern Israel and then returned to land in eastern Lebanon after taking photographs during its flight. These pictures not only suggested a flight path for Hizbollah's rockets to Haifa; they also identified Israel's top-secret military air traffic control centre in Miron.

The next attack - concealed by Israel's censors - was directed at this facility. Codenamed "Apollo", Israeli military scientists work deep inside mountain caves and bunkers at Miron, guarded by watchtowers, guard-dogs and barbed wire, watching all air traffic moving in and out of Beirut, Damascus, Amman and other Arab cities. The mountain is surmounted by clusters of antennae which Hizbollah quickly identified as a military tracking centre. Before they fired rockets at Haifa, they therefore sent a cluster of missiles towards Miron. The caves are untouchable but the targeting of such a secret location by Hizbollah deeply shocked Israel's military planners. The "centre of world terror" - or whatever they imagine Lebanon to be - could not only breach their frontier and capture their soldiers but attack the nerve-centre of the Israeli northern military command.


Then came the Haifa missiles and the attack on the gunboat. It is now clear that this successful military operation - so contemptuous of their enemy were the Israelis that although their warship was equipped with cannon and a Vulcan machine gun, they didn't even provide the vessel with an anti-missile capability - was also planned months ago. Once the Hetz-class boats appeared, Hizbollah positioned a missile crew on the coast of west Beirut not far from Jnah, a crew trained over many weeks for just such an attack. It took less than 30 seconds for the Iranian-made missile to leave Beirut and hit the vessel square amidships, setting it on fire and killing the sailors.

Ironically, the Israelis themselves had invited journalists on an "embedded" trip with their navy only hours earlier - they were allowed to film the ships' guns firing on Lebanon - and the moment Hizbollah hit the warship on Friday, Hizbollah's television station, Al-Manar, began showing the "embedded" film. It was a slick piece of propaganda.

The Israelis were yesterday trumpeting the fact that the missile was made in Iran as proof of Iran's involvement in the Lebanon war. This was odd reasoning. Since almost all the missiles used to kill the civilians of Lebanon over the past four days were made in Seattle, Duluth and Miami in the United States, their use already suggests to millions of Lebanese that America is behind the bombardment of their country.


© 2006 Independent News and Media Limited

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tphuang

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Staff member
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adeptitus said:
IMO there's so much misinformation being tossed about right now, we prolly won't know all the facts until later.

Assuming if the weapon used is the C-802, I'd say that it demonstrated about the same level of performance as the French-made Exocet used in Falklands War:

1) Overall success (hit) rate of ~50% (on intended target!)
2) Doesn't always detonate upon impact, but will mission-kill the ship anyway

The Israelis claim that their anti-missile defense system were intentionally turned off. We cannot verify this claim, and if the Israeli intelligence didn't detect delivery of anti-ship missiles, then that's a major failure on their part.

The value of C-802's might go up, but China won't necessarily benefit because:

1) There'll be a lot more opposition to PRC exporting anti-ship missiles in the immediate future
2) C-802 anti-ship missile customers are limited in number
3) If Iran is producing copies of the C-802, customers can buy from them and not from the PRC.
well, as I mentionned above, the merchant ship was too far away from the other targets on the shore for me to believe that the radar seeker missed it and travelled another 50 km. It seems more likely that the militants were directly targetting the merchant ship (so they wanted to destroy it or they misidentified it). Another possibility is that Israelis destroyed it for whatever reason.

As for Iran producing copies of C-802, I'm not sure they are allowed to export them, so that's really not a concern for PRC imo.
 

planeman

Senior Member
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Great discussion and research guys. I've been thinking along similar lines from the first I heard about this. I'd still put more money on a C-701 than a C-802. some thoughts:

1) I'd put very little stock in the quoted distances "offshore" - it depends which bit of shore you care to measure off - Israel will try to exagerate the distance from shore, as will the "Egyptian" merchantman. I think we can all agre that the Saar-5 was probably close in to shore, whether it's 10km or 17km who knows.

2) The drone story seems to have come from Hezbollah. It may be a translation issue but a possible motivation for a deliberate wrong reporting is to hide the fact that they have recieved missiles from Iran - just as Israel hopes to implicate Iran and/or Syria at every opportunity. but missile is far more credible.

3) Israel's apparent reluctance to show pictures of the ship are probably to either play it down (stop it getting repeated in the news) OR to enable them to play it up for political reasons - when in fact the damage may be quite slight (as in a glancing blow from a C-701).

4) This raises issues about the effectiveness of radar stealth on warships and/or countermeasures. I still think a TV or IR-guided c-701 fired at a ship within sight of the shore is most likely and would explain much.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
bd popeye said:
Personally I do not believe the IDF ship was not operating it's SAAR system. As I said before. Someone goofed..
Wall Street Journal reporting this morning that the Israeli officers did not have the missile defense systems active. Same thing being said by the IDF, that because intelligence did not indicate that specific threat, they had it turned off to avoind any friendly fire incidents.

That is indeed, IMHO, a huge goof...by intelligence, by theater command that went along with it, and by the commander of that vessel if he did not raise bloody you-know-what over it.

They have another of the same class vessel on station now and you can bet they will not be sucker punched twice.
 

FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
Jeff Head said:
Wall Street Journal reporting this morning that the Israeli officers did not have the missile defense systems active. Same thing being said by the IDF, that because intelligence did not indicate that specific threat, they had it turned off to avoind any friendly fire incidents.

That is indeed, IMHO, a huge goof...by intelligence, by theater command that went along with it, and by the commander of that vessel if he did not raise bloody you-know-what over it.

They have another of the same class vessel on station now and you can bet they will not be sucker punched twice.

Jeff I don't buy it.

Look at the article I posted from Information clearinghouse.

Hezbullah did a massive amount of intelligence and preparation work before
launch of the attack on Haifa. They knew where israel monitored missile
launches and confused Miron with a barrage.

I'd be astonished if this was just freak event.
 

sydneylocks

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Pending further news, here's my 2c. I think Hezbollah launched 1 c802 at and hit the Saar5 on helicopter deck, I think the damage is much more severe than we're led to believe, I think the Israeli ship's defenses were on but were to close to shore and had interference or lacked adequate response time. I think the Israelis fired blindly when one of their ship was hit and subsequently sank the egyptian flagged freighter (bonus in Israeli eyes as they can then blame Hezbollah).

I think Hezbollah put out the drone story in order to deflect attention from Iran and to gain additional glory from a self-manfactured weapon capable of taking out the best INS ship.

I think it particularly striking that we've not had a single picture posted of the real damage to the ship, think on that.
 

pngwerume

New Member
Yesterday pop-eye said his mates still in the US Navy had been called in for am emergency meeting! If the Saar 5's defence systems were off, the USN would not call for a panic meeting!
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Yes, there is much more to this story than the media is reporting. I think that the ships systems were on. However, they didn't have enough time to respond, ground clutter etc etc. All of this has been laid out by other posters. The enviroment was the best situation for the missle and the worst of the Saar 5.

As for the Egyptian ship-The sailors said that their ship was sunk by an Israeli gunboat firing in all directions. It is possible that the Israeli ships in the area opened fire randomly after the Saar 5 was hit.
 

FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
Finn McCool said:
Yes, there is much more to this story than the media is reporting. I think that the ships systems were on. However, they didn't have enough time to respond, ground clutter etc etc. All of this has been laid out by other posters. The enviroment was the best situation for the missle and the worst of the Saar 5.

As for the Egyptian ship-The sailors said that their ship was sunk by an Israeli gunboat firing in all directions. It is possible that the Israeli ships in the area opened fire randomly after the Saar 5 was hit.

like i said repeat of the attack on the USN Liberty by the israeli navy.

see
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it's strange how it always involves the egyptians
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
pngwerume sez..
Yesterday pop-eye said his mates still in the US Navy had been called in for am emergency meeting! If the Saar 5's defence systems were off, the USN would not call for a panic meeting!

Ahemm..not exactly a "panic meeting"..Yea right. They were more than likely "analizing data gathered". My friend went to work Saturday and Sunday for 12 hours each day. Ouch..Enough said....If I could get a hold of him I bet He is working 12 hour shifts this week also.

Personally I do not believe the IDF ships SAAR 5 was "off"..That's BS IMO..the IDF ship got caught with their pants down....

I also find it very suspicous that the IDF has realeased no pics of the damaged ship. I really wanna see those pics!
 
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