Israel attacks Gaza Strip

isthvan

Tailgunner
VIP Professional
FreeAsia2000 said:
Did anybody see those weird balls on a chain thing around the turrets of the tanks ? apparently those are designed to confuse the missile.

It certainly appears that the Kornet is a VERY effective missile. Their also seems to be some Metis-M missiles being used

(Guys lets keep the politics out of it. So far we've been pretty professional
and certainly don't start insulting each other like other forums so well done ! )

Like caksz said they are used to cover the gap between the turret and the hull… It works against older RPG quite well…

Kornet is highly affective missile whit tandem warhead and laser beam riding guidance system which makes him quite difficult to jam… Also for now most of tanks were disabled by IED´s whit only few cases of hits whit modern ATGM´s… There were few examples where Merkava was hit by AT-3/4/7 or older Milan ATGM´s but they suffered only limited damage by these missiles…

Main threat to IDF tanks are IED´s and modern ATGM´s like Kornet or Iranian versions of TOW whit tandem warheads but it seams that Hezbollah has only limited supplies of this missiles…

Ps. I agree about politics and apologize for my post… We all have different opinions and best thing is to stop discussing them here. I should have known better and I will concentrate to military aspect only from now…
 

mobydog

Junior Member
A great article...

Israel, Not Hizbullah, is Putting Civilians in Danger on Both Sides of the Border

War of Media Deception

some interesting Excerpts

"The Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert embeds his soldiers in Israeli communities, next to schools, beside hospitals, close to welfare centres, ensuring that any Israeli target is also a civilian target. This is the practice the UN's Jan Egeland had in mind when he lambasted Israel's 'cowardly blending ... among women and children'.

"he says Hizbullah fighters are "cowardly blending" with Lebanon's civilian population. It is difficult to know what to make of this observation. If Freedland means that Hizbullah fighters come from Lebanese towns and villages and have families living there whom they visit and live among, he is right. But exactly the same can be said of Israel and its soldiers, who return from the battlefront (in this case inside Lebanon, as they are now an invading army) to live with parents or spouses in Israeli communities. Armed and uniformed soldiers can be seen all over Israel, sitting in trains, queuing in banks, waiting with civilians at bus stops. Does that mean they are "cowardly blending' with Israel's civilian population?"

Egeland and Freedland's criticism seems to amount to little more than blaming Hizbullah fighters for not standing in open fields waiting to be picked off by Israeli tanks and war planes. That, presumably, would be brave. But in reality no army fights in this way, and Hizbullah can hardly be criticised for using the only strategic defences it has: its underground bunkers and the crumbling fortifications of Lebanese villages ruined by Israeli pounding. An army defending itself from invasion has to make the most of whatever protection it can find -- as long as it does not intentionally put civilians at risk. But HRW's research shows convincingly that Hizbullah is not doing this.

But to anyone living in Nazareth, it was clear the rocket attack on the city was not indiscriminate either. It was a mistake -- something Nasrallah quickly confirmed in one of his televised speeches. The real target of the strike was known to Nazarenes: close by the city are a military weapons factory and a large military camp. Hizbullah knows the locations of these military targets because this year, as was widely reported in the Israeli media at the time, it managed to fly an unmanned drone over the Galilee photographing the area in detail -- employing the same spying techniques used for many years by Israel against Lebanon.

One of Hizbullah's first rocket attacks after the outbreak of hostilities -- after Israel went on the bombing offensive by blitzing targets across Lebanon -- was on a kibbutz overlooking the border with Lebanon. Some foreign correspondents noted at the time (though given Israel's press censorship laws I cannot confirm) that the rocket strike targeted a top-secret military traffic control centre built into the Galilee's hills.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
maglomanic said:
If i recall correctly there were no rocket attacks before Israel started it's offensive.

Uhh, Hezbollah had fired quite a few rockets before this whole deal started. Israel reltaliated with air strikes on Hezbollah positions, military ones.

About the ATGMs-I think that Hezbollah was very careful to stock up on these while they had the chance. So I think that they have enough. I don't know if there's much that Israel can do about them, the IDF is just going to have to deal with them and kill them when they see them. If they occupy territory long term then IEDs are going to be the main killer.

Oh and ute-cool story, but you have to expect a missle to be more effective than a tank round.
 

utelore

Junior Member
VIP Professional
***Oh and ute-cool story, but you have to expect a missile to be more effective than a tank round.****

Well I think that depends on the type of tank round and missile. A 120mm Rheinmetall with a DU round vs tank is gonna be more effective than say a Milan ATGW at 2000 meters every time. BUT inside of a Abrams I would rather be hit by a 125mm non- DU T-72 round than say a TOW or Milan ATGW. I would not even feel the 125mm but the TOW or Milan would ring the hell out of my bell. Then if you move up into the area of Hellfire and Maverick then you would be correct in any situation....cheers ute.
 

utelore

Junior Member
VIP Professional
JERUSALEM - Hezbollah's sophisticated anti-tank missiles are perhaps the guerrilla group's deadliest weapon in Lebanon fighting, with their ability to pierce Israel's most advanced tanks.

Experts say this is further evidence that Israel is facing a well-equipped army in this war, not a ragtag militia.

Hezbollah has fired Russian-made ***Metis-M anti-tank missiles*** and owns European-made Milan missiles, the army confirmed on Friday.

In the last two days alone, these missiles have killed seven soldiers and damaged three Israeli-made Merkava tanks — mountains of steel that are vaunted as symbols of Israel's military might, the army said. Israeli media say most of the 44 soldiers killed in four weeks of fighting were hit by anti-tank missiles.

"They (Hezbollah guerrillas) have some of the most advanced anti-tank missiles in the world," said Yossi Kuperwasser, a senior military intelligence officer who retired earlier this summer.

"This is not a militia, it's an infantry brigade with all the support units," Kuperwasser said.

Israel contends that Hezbollah gets almost all of its weaponry from Syria and by extension Iran, including its anti-tank missiles.

That's why cutting off the supply chain is essential — and why fighting Hezbollah after it has spent six years building up its arsenal is proving so painful to Israel, officials say.

Israel's Merkava tanks boast massive amounts of armor and lumber and resemble fortresses on tracks. They are built for crew survival, according to Globalsecurity.org, a Washington-based military think tank.

Hezbollah celebrates when it destroys one.

"A Zionist armored force tried to advance toward the village of Chihine. The holy warriors confronted it and destroyed two Merkava tanks," the group proclaimed on television Thursday.

The Israeli army confirmed two attacks on Merkava tanks that day — one that killed three soldiers and the other killing one. The three soldiers who were killed on Friday were also killed by anti-tank missiles, the army said.

It would not say whether the missiles disabled the tanks.

"To the best of my understanding, they (Hezbollah) are as well-equipped as any standing unit in the Syrian or Iranian armies," said Eran Lerman, a retired army colonel and now director of the Israel/Middle East office of the American Jewish Committee. "This is not a rat-pack guerrilla, this is an organized militia."

Besides the anti-tank missiles, Hezbollah is also known to have a powerful rocket-propelled grenade known as the RPG29. These weapons are also smuggled through Syria, an Israeli security official said, and were previously used by Palestinian militants in Gaza to damage tanks.

On Friday, Jane's Defense Weekly, a defense industry magazine, reported that Hezbollah asked Iran for "a constant supply of weapons" to support its operations against Israel.

The report cited Western diplomatic sources as saying that Iranian authorities promised Hezbollah a steady supply of weapons "for the next stage of the confrontation."

Top Israeli intelligence officials say they have seen Iranian Revolutionary Guard soldiers on the ground with Hezbollah troops. They say that permission to fire Hezbollah's longer-range missiles, such as those could reach Tel Aviv, would likely require Iranian go-ahead.
 

crazyinsane105

Junior Member
VIP Professional
met.jpg


Metis-M anti-tank missiles

met_3.jpg


Firing of Metis-M missile

met_2.jpg


Mobility


Seems like a very capable system.
 
Last edited:

utelore

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Well crazy I can tell you what happens to a Abrams when a 115mm heat or HE round hits it in the front slope.

The crew is pretty dinged up with ear drums damaged if unbuttoned and a pretty good concussion with contusions. The tanks sites become jacked up with the shattering of the optics and the ballistic computer goes tits up. FRH Hydraulic fluid starts leaking out of various places in the turret and hull floor which makes the turret rotation and gun depression and elevation nonoperational due to loss of FRH fluid. Halon system will discharge fogging up the inside of the tank. V-pack-Filters in the Engine separate, "Bitch plate" is blown off and more Halon is fired off into the engine compartment to prevent fire. Tank commanders Hatch is blown off and laying on the back deck. Loaders M-240 machine gun gone along with mounting. BUT everyone lives to fight another day. However this is not happening with the Merkava crew for some reason as they seem to be dying. thats bad
 
Last edited:

crazyinsane105

Junior Member
VIP Professional
utelore said:
However this is not happening with the Merkava crew for some reason as they seem to be dying. thats bad

Is it a design flaw in the Merkava? It may seem so by the reports coming in.
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Ute, it doesn't sound like the Abrams is a very effective fighting system after being hit. Without its sights, computer and all the fancy things that break after it's hit there itsn't much difference between it and a WWII tank. I'm sure that you have something you can do to maintain battle effectiveness after getting hit, so I was wondering-How do you keep fighting after that?

Back on topic, I agree with Ute. ATGMs are very powerful. And Hezbollah knows how to use them. They're probably aiming for the area in between the turret and the hull, or the rear. I bet that the Israeli crews are going in buttoned up from now on. I also bet that the Israeli infantry is doing more walking, rather than riding in vunerable APCs.
 
Top