ISIS/ISIL conflict in Syria/Iraq (No OpEd, No Politics)

delft

Brigadier
Re: 2014 ISIS attack in Iraq: News, Views, Photos, Videos

Well then the US Army is just a bunch of idiots teaching the Iraqis the wrong tactics and doctrines!

NO, I don not think that is the case at all HOWEVER I do think that they overestimated the will, fighting spirit and prowess of the Iraqi Army and nor did they truly comprehend the extremely complicated issues of tribal politics and dogma. Then again unless one is born and raised there how can you?
IMHO that is also causing the green on green attacks of coalition forces in Iraq and Afghanistan.
You have diplomats in a country to know about such things or, if you don't spend enough on diplomats, you use spies. And in Iraq the US had an occupation army so even more opportunity to learn about the people living there. What were they doing there???
 

delft

Brigadier
Re: 2014 ISIS attack in Iraq: News, Views, Photos, Videos

I'm now listening to BBC Radio4 World at One and heard the Foreign Secretary say that they want to continue supporting the "Free Syrian Army" and so apparently continue to try to destroy Syria while also perhaps bombing IS in Syria and therefore fight the Syrian air defense at the same time. The previous Commander in Chief of the UK army said this morning on the BBC that it might be better to ally to president Assad in the fight against IS.
 

Franklin

Captain
Re: 2014 ISIS attack in Iraq: News, Views, Photos, Videos

The issue is not the lack of training or the willingness to fight. The issue is corruption in Iraq at the highest levels of the military and government. What I have heard is that the army units based in Mosul was willing to defend the city against the ISIS but they didn't recieve any supplies like food and munition or any re-inforcements. Despite it was promised to them but never materialized. Those units where essentially abandoned by their leaders. And as a result they broke and ran and the ISIS took over the city. And that has been repeating itself all over the area's that are now under control of the ISIS. The same thing happened with those Shia volunteers they didn't get any supplies what so ever and they became disillusioned and disbanded themselves.

The professional officers corps that the US has left behind has been rotting away ever since the US left Iraq. Officers are being promoted based on political and sectarian favours and commissions are often bought with money. The Iraqi army has become a racket for corruption and extortion.
 

mr.bean

Junior Member
Re: 2014 ISIS attack in Iraq: News, Views, Photos, Videos

after watching events happening in Iraq I think nobody wants to say it, but Iraq is a lost cause. it's such a mess that any band aid response will not do any good. the only way to do it is another full scale US military invasion to flush out all these ISIS and then STAY in Iraq and administer it like the 51st state of the union. if the US tries again to prop up a puppet regime it wont work, it can't work because these puppets are totally incompetent, corrupt and useless. worse of all the current puppet regime doesn't even totally listen to American instructions. Obama is frustrated with maliki because he was told to assemble a leadership that is inclusive and represent all sectors of Iraqi society of Shiites, sunni and kurds. but what does maliki do? he put all his Shiite cronies in and alienates the Sunni's. it's becoming pretty obvious Obama doesn't want to do anything in Iraq and leave this mess to the next president. in his NYtimes interview with Friedman he looks tired and exhausted when Iraq was mentioned you can tell he really wish he could wash his hands off that one.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Re: 2014 ISIS attack in Iraq: News, Views, Photos, Videos

Well then the US Army is just a bunch of idiots teaching the Iraqis the wrong tactics and doctrines!

NO, I don not think that is the case at all HOWEVER I do think that they overestimated the will, fighting spirit and prowess of the Iraqi Army and nor did they truly comprehend the extremely complicated issues of tribal politics and dogma. Then again unless one is born and raised there how can you?
IMHO that is also causing the green on green attacks of coalition forces in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The issue is not the lack of training or the willingness to fight. The issue is corruption in Iraq at the highest levels of the military and government. What I have heard is that the army units based in Mosul was willing to defend the city against the ISIS but they didn't recieve any supplies like food and munition or any re-inforcements. Despite it was promised to them but never materialized. Those units where essentially abandoned by their leaders. And as a result they broke and ran and the ISIS took over the city. And that has been repeating itself all over the area's that are now under control of the ISIS. The same thing happened with those Shia volunteers they didn't get any supplies what so ever and they became disillusioned and disbanded themselves.

The professional officers corps that the US has left behind has been rotting away ever since the US left Iraq. Officers are being promoted based on political and sectarian favours and commissions are often bought with money. The Iraqi army has become a racket for corruption and extortion.

It is likely a combination of several factors, and I would say all played a role in the current sad state of the Iraqi army.

For example, the US Army is a professional force, so their doctrine calls for relatively good pay for its soldiers. However, this doctrine translated into the Iraqi environment turned their army into a cesspool of corruption. Iraqi soldiers are only there to get their pay, not to risk their lives. Obviously this has a huge impact on the combat effectiveness of the Iraqi army. When everyone from foot soldiers to officers are more concerned about their own welfare than their military objectives, you get incidents where almost intact armored vehicles get abandoned to the enemy.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: 2014 ISIS attack in Iraq: News, Views, Photos, Videos

Training was not insufficient, it was completely wrong.
That is purely your opinion.

But you were not there fighting Al Qaida (which is what ISIS is in a revamped form), or defeating them

The US military devised successful tactics in working with the tribal leaders and enlisting their help, with Iraqi forces intimately involved, to defeat the terrorists.

This clearly worked. I have linked on these boards to the white paper, developed by the US military, that was the basis for this I victory.

THAT is what the Iraqi forces were trained to do.

But a political leadership came in in Iraq that had no interest in working in that manner with the trial leaders, who removed the Iraqi Army leaders who had been trained in that fashion.

The result was that they were losing. Obama was correct in insisting that that political leadership be removed.

But the training was not only correct...it is proven in defeating these very terrorists and it will work again if employed.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Re: 2014 ISIS attack in Iraq: News, Views, Photos, Videos

That is purely your opinion.

But you were not there fighting Al Qaida (which is what ISIS is in a revamped form), or defeating them

The US military devised successful tactics in working with the tribal leaders and enlisting their help, with Iraqi forces intimately involved, to defeat the terrorists.

This clearly worked. I have linked on these boards to the white paper, developed by the US military, that was the basis for this I victory.

THAT is what the Iraqi forces were trained to do.

But a political leadership came in in Iraq that had no interest in working in that manner with the trial leaders, who removed the Iraqi Army leaders who had been trained in that fashion.

The result was that they were losing. Obama was correct in insisting that that political leadership be removed.

But the training was not only correct...it is proven in defeating these very terrorists and it will work again if employed.

I don't think ISIS is al-Qaida revamped, I think it is another beast entirely. Al-qaeda was a guerilla force who could only conduct terror and assassination attacks. ISIS is a real army with the ability to hold ground.

The tactics for dealing with them are completely different.

It is not a coincidence that ISIS emerged shortly after the US withdrawal. They had been laying low in Iraq, biding their time, recruiting troops and sending them to Syria for combat experience. ISIS has been building an army, not a terror network.
 
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Broccoli

Senior Member
Re: 2014 ISIS attack in Iraq: News, Views, Photos, Videos

People forget that Assad regime didn't lift a finger against IS when IS was killing anti-Assad rebels, but now everyone should join with Assad? What a joke. Let the Islamic State maul Syrian army and NDF for now.

Anyhow, if these new figures are true Islamic State won't be destroyed from the air.

Islamic State 'has 50,000 fighters in Syria'
The Islamic State group has an army of more than 50,000 fighters in Syria, and recruited 6,000 people in the last month, a monitoring group has said.

Rami Abdel Rahman, the director of the UK-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, said on Tuesday that the group's recruitment push was gathering pace every month.

"July saw the largest recruitment since the group appeared in Syria in 2013, with more than 6,000 new fighters," he said.

"The number of IS fighters has passed 50,000 in Syria, including 20,000 non-Syrians," he said.

Al Jazeera cannot verify the observatory's figures. However, an Islamic State source backed the statement and told Al Jazeera that the group also had 30,000 fighters in Iraq.

Abdel Rahman said the new recruits in Syria included more than 1,000 foreign fighters from Chechnya, China, Europe and Arab countries. He said most had entered Syria from Turkey.


Other recruits included defectors from the ranks of other armed opposition groups, including 200 from the al-Qaeda affiliate in Syria, the Nusra Front.

The Islamic State group, formerly known as ISIL, grew out of the American-led war in Iraq, and entered the civil war in Syria last year. It attempted to take command of Nusra and denounced al-Qaeda's overall leader, Ayman al-Zawahiri, as "straying from the path".

The Islamic State group initially cooperated with some of the armed opposition in Syria, but its abuses against rival rebels and civilians sparked a backlash that began this January.

It has recently taken over vast areas of neighbouring Iraq and its leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, earlier this year declared himself the caliph of territory captured on both sides of the border.
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This sort of massacres make sure that moderate Sunnis are going to support Islamic State too in future.

Shia armed group kills at least 73 people inside place of worship in the city of Baquba in eastern Diyala province.
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solarz

Brigadier
Re: 2014 ISIS attack in Iraq: News, Views, Photos, Videos

People forget that Assad regime didn't lift a finger against IS when IS was killing anti-Assad rebels, but now everyone should join with Assad? What a joke. Let the Islamic State maul Syrian army and NDF for now.

Ridiculous. Assad didn't touch ISIS because he was too busy fighting the FSA and the other al-qaida affiliated army.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: 2014 ISIS attack in Iraq: News, Views, Photos, Videos

I don't think ISIS is al-Qaida revamped, I think it is another beast entirely.
No, it is a well known genesis.

Al Queda Iraq was led by Zarqawi. when he was killed in June 2006 by a US attack based on US and Iraqi intelligence, it marked a turning point for AQI. Abu Ayyub al-Masri, an Egyptian-born explosives expert and former Zawahiri confidant, became AQI's new leader. In October of that year (2006) al-Masri adopted the Islamic State of Iraq (ISI) alias in an effort to increase the group's local appeal and establish theirbterritorial ambitions.

After expanding into Syria (largely because it was being moved out of/defeated in Iraq due to the strategies I previously talked about), it adopted the name ISIS. This also reflected its new ambitions because instability in neighboring Syria in 2011 created new opportunities for it despie its loss in Iraq to US/Iraqi forces.

Now ISIS is led by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, also known as Abu Du'a.

solarz said:
]Al-qaeda was a guerilla force who could only conduct terror and assassination attacks. ISIS is a real army with the ability to hold ground.
Actually, they have always had ambitions toward a caliphate and its establishment.

But to do that they need tribes nd tribal leaders to support them. The US/Iraqi strategies denied them this earlier. Ater policies of the Iraqi government opened that opportunity back up as we have seen.
 
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