ISIS/ISIL conflict in Syria/Iraq (No OpEd, No Politics)

Re: 2014 ISIS attack in Iraq: News, Views, Photos, Videos

Jeff Head said:

Oh, baloney.

The training was not insufficient. They were trained in the same methods that defeated these terrorists the first time.

The political will and leadership has been lacking.

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Training was not insufficient, it was completely wrong . Iraqi Army was trained to fight like US Army, with ample air and artillery support and huge logistic tail. That kind of fighting style requires good organization on state level and working bureaucracy to support all of this, not to mention economy to pay for it. On the other hand, Iraq is a Third World country with non-functional institutions, rampant corruption and tribal loyalties.

So instead of creating bad copy of Western armies (same mistake that was made in South Vietnam), they should have created loose confederation of local militias, trained to fight like light infantry and ready to repel ISIS invaders. Central government should have been left with only small rapid reaction force to "plug holes" where needed.

Re: 2014 ISIS attack in Iraq: News, Views, Photos, Videos

NY Times claims that US attempted to save Foley and others, but found none of them :

In Raid to Save Foley and Other Hostages, U.S. Found None

EDGARTOWN, Mass. — A secret nighttime military mission authorized by President Obama to rescue Americans held captive in Syria failed early this summer when a team of two dozen Delta Force commandos raided an oil refinery in the northern part of the country but found after a firefight with Islamic militants that there were no hostages to be saved, administration officials said Wednesday.

The officials — speaking a day after the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria posted a video showing the American journalist James Foley being beheaded — described what they called a “complicated operation” in which the commandos were dropped by helicopter into Syrian territory in an attempt to rescue Mr. Foley and others being held by the Sunni militant group.

The Army commandos fought their way to the spot where they believed that ISIS was hiding the hostages, the officials said. But when the team swooped in, the hostages were gone. “We’re not sure why they were moved,” a Defense Department official said. “By the time we got there, it was too late.” The official said it may have been “a matter of hours, perhaps a day or two” since the hostages had been there......

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Re: 2014 ISIS attack in Iraq: News, Views, Photos, Videos

thunderchief said:

Training was not insufficient, it was completely wrong . Iraqi Army was trained to fight like US Army, with ample air and artillery support and huge logistic tail. That kind of fighting style requires good organization on state level and working bureaucracy to support all of this, not to mention economy to pay for it. On the other hand, Iraq is a Third World country with non-functional institutions, rampant corruption and tribal loyalties.

So instead of creating bad copy of Western armies (same mistake that was made in South Vietnam), they should have created loose confederation of local militias, trained to fight like light infantry and ready to repel ISIS invaders. Central government should have been left with only small rapid reaction force to "plug holes" where needed.

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Excellent point! The US military can only train others in what they know, and that means a combined-arms approach that is designed to work with the US logistics system. It is very possible that this is not the kind of combat doctrine the Iraqis should be using.

Re: 2014 ISIS attack in Iraq: News, Views, Photos, Videos

thunderchief said:

Training was not insufficient, it was completely wrong . Iraqi Army was trained to fight like US Army, with ample air and artillery support and huge logistic tail. That kind of fighting style requires good organization on state level and working bureaucracy to support all of this, not to mention economy to pay for it. On the other hand, Iraq is a Third World country with non-functional institutions, rampant corruption and tribal loyalties.

So instead of creating bad copy of Western armies (same mistake that was made in South Vietnam), they should have created loose confederation of local militias, trained to fight like light infantry and ready to repel ISIS invaders. Central government should have been left with only small rapid reaction force to "plug holes" where needed.

Click to expand...

The training was the best solution at the time because of the education level on many of these new Iraqi recruits. At the infantry level I believe they were sufficient although very small in numbers, but at an armor, artillery, and air support level they were not. And those requires a LOT OF MONEY and time that the coalition forces didn't have at the time.

Re: 2014 ISIS attack in Iraq: News, Views, Photos, Videos

Maybe the Iraqi army should just get trained by Assad's army?

Re: 2014 ISIS attack in Iraq: News, Views, Photos, Videos

no_name said:

Maybe the Iraqi army should just get trained by Assad's army?

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Assad's army is too busy fighting ISIS in their homeland right now.

Re: 2014 ISIS attack in Iraq: News, Views, Photos, Videos

Obama clearly doesn't know what he's doing and that's why there's no leadership regarding this situation. A sign was he had to resort to lambasting China over Iraq in the recent NYTimes interview with Tom Friedman. Friedman brought up China's stake in a stable Iraq and Obama took a shot calling China a "free rider" aka freeloader. What ever happen to "You broke it, you fix it?" What does Obama expect China to do? Send the PLA to Iraq? And people got upset China sent naval ships to the Gulf of Aden on anti-piracy duty believing China would learn something from such a deployment. Maybe the US gets command of the PLA in operations? It's just a cheap shot, meaning Obama is looking to anything to distract from this as his failure, because the US would never accept the PLA going to Iraq in the first place. BTW, US oil companies saw Iraq too risky which is why China is in there to help Iraq make money to stabilize the country. That's China's contribution. Just like Africa was too risky but now Obama says US in Africa is open for business... courtesy of the infrastructure China built that spurred economic growth.

There's a case to be made that the US does prefer chaos than a government in place the US doesn't like. Obama and Hillary Clinton said they were inspired by the Arab Spring believing that was better than the governments in power at the time. Now Hillary in her new book tries to distance herself from the Arab Spring blaming it on the younger generation in the Obama Administration. Is that an admission the US was behind the scenes? Is she distancing herself because every country that experienced the Arab Spring have less than uncooperative governments with the US than the ones before?

I'm sure the mentality before was that if a country went into chaos because the regime in control toppled, it was pretty much self-contained so the US didn't have to worry about it being on the other side of the world. But now that's not the case. But I bet thinking twice before deciding to topple governments is still too far behind to catch-up to reality anytime soon.

Re: 2014 ISIS attack in Iraq: News, Views, Photos, Videos

solarz said:

Excellent point! The US military can only train others in what they know, and that means a combined-arms approach that is designed to work with the US logistics system. It is very possible that this is not the kind of combat doctrine the Iraqis should be using.

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Well then the US Army is just a bunch of idiots teaching the Iraqis the wrong tactics and doctrines!

NO, I don not think that is the case at all HOWEVER I do think that they overestimated the will, fighting spirit and prowess of the Iraqi Army and nor did they truly comprehend the extremely complicated issues of tribal politics and dogma. Then again unless one is born and raised there how can you?
IMHO that is also causing the green on green attacks of coalition forces in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Re: 2014 ISIS attack in Iraq: News, Views, Photos, Videos

kwaigonegin said:

Well then the US Army is just a bunch of idiots teaching the Iraqis the wrong tactics and doctrines!

NO, I don not think that is the case at all HOWEVER I do think that they overestimated the will, fighting spirit and prowess of the Iraqi Army and nor did they truly comprehend the extremely complicated issues of tribal politics and dogma. Then again unless one is born and raised there how can you?
IMHO that is also causing the green on green attacks of coalition forces in Iraq and Afghanistan.

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US Army did what they were told to do. Problems lies with political class. Stated goal was to create some kind of democracy in Iraq modeled after US or Europe. Such country would of course have Western-style army with all inherited strengths and weaknesses. Since Iraq could not be remodeled into Western society (for numerous reasons I don't want to dwell into ), Iraqi army didn't evolve into small version of US Army. Instead, it become almost useless boondoggle that we know today.

Re: 2014 ISIS attack in Iraq: News, Views, Photos, Videos

Equation said:

The training was the best solution at the time because of the education level on many of these new Iraqi recruits. At the infantry level I believe they were sufficient although very small in numbers, but at an armor, artillery, and air support level they were not. And those requires a LOT OF MONEY and time that the coalition forces didn't have at the time.

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Do you mean that as a adequate training was impossible a make believe training had to be given?