ISIS/ISIL conflict in Syria/Iraq (No OpEd, No Politics)

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
...a hospital becomes a valid target if combattants are being treated. A hospital is a hospital. An attack on one deliberately would contravene (I believe) the Geneva Conventions. If a hospital is an unfortunate piece of colateral damage then that is a very sad event, but all measures must be taken to prevent such an occurrence.

That said, I believe it is the responsibility of the aid agency/medical group in place to ensure that information regarding use of a facility as a medical centre is broadcast to all parties.
If you have a field medical station on the battlefield...or medics running to pick up wounded on the battlefield...they are going to be targeted.

Think about it. It is war. People are trained and used to kill troops on each side.

If you allow a medic to come out and retrieve a soldier who has been wounded...that soldier is likely to come back and fight you. This is why medics are so brave. They run out, many times under withering fire...to retrieve a comrade. And many times they themselves are shot.

I know this is not something we like to talk about. It is not nice. It is not humane. But WAR IS NOT HUMANE. It is about killing enemies who are trying to kill you.

So, if one faction takes over a town, and sends its soldiers who are wounded to a hospital in that town where those soldiers are treated, fixed up, and sent back to fight...as sad as it is, as much as we do not think it is right...you can expect that hospital to come under attack.

As I say, we may not like it. We may say and believe that it is against the "rules." But in a situation where healthy soldiers try to kill you...it is easy to understand why the people who might be killed by those returning soldiers would not want to allow that to happen.

....and then take the next step and make sure it does not happen.

Best not to treat non-combatants where combatants are treated. Doing so brings the non-combatant into abject danger.

Irrespective of what we want ...or what rules we want to apply...it is just common sense to not have combatants treated where non-combatants are treated. The people whom those treated combatants are going to try and kill or not going to respect the difference...especially when their friends and comrades are being killed by them.
 

dtulsa

Junior Member
If you have a field medical station on the battlefield...or medics running to pick up wounded on the battlefield...they are going to be targeted.

Think about it. It is war. People are trained and used to kill troops on each side.

If you allow a medic to come out and retrieve a soldier who has been wounded...that soldier is likely to come back and fight you. This is why medics are so brave. They run out, many times under withering fire...to retrieve a comrade. And many times they themselves are shot.

I know this is not something we like to talk about. It is not nice. It is not humane. But WAR IS NOT HUMANE. It is about killing enemies who are trying to kill you.

So, if one faction takes over a town, and sends its soldiers who are wounded to a hospital in that town where those soldiers are treated, fixed up, and sent back to fight...as sad as it is, as much as we do not think it is right...you can expect that hospital to come under attack.

As I say, we may not like it. We may say and believe that it is against the "rules." But in a situation where healthy soldiers try to kill you...it is easy to understand why the people who might be killed by those returning soldiers would not want to allow that to happen.

....and then take the next step and make sure it does not happen.

Best not to treat non-combatants where combatants are treated. Doing so brings the non-combatant into abject danger.

Irrespective of what we want ...or what rules we want to apply...it is just common sense to not have combatants treated where non-combatants are treated. The people whom those treated combatants are going to try and kill or not going to respect the difference...especially when their friends and comrades are being killed by them.
Sometimes people forget the object of combat is to make the enemy surrender unconditionally that mean their total guaranteed destruction if they continue to resist
 

Geographer

Junior Member
If hospitals are used for military purposes other than treatment of injuries, then they're fair targets. What I mean is if enemies station soldiers and military hardware in those places, then it's bombs away.
Blackstone, would you feel the same way regarding insurgents' targeting of government targets? For example, would you feel it's legitimate to bomb a subway station in order to kill soldiers passing through?

Doctors Without Borders has decades of experience operating hospitals in war zones and they have never allowed combatants of any stripe to operate from their hospitals. They always publicize the location of their hospitals.

If insurgents were in the building next door and the hospital is bombed, that is still the fault of the air force commander for knowing there was a decent risk that the bomb would miss and hit the hospital, or damage the hospital from collateral damage even if the intended target was hit. In this kind of situation, the commander ought to err on the side of caution and call off the strike, as many American commanders do. No battle is won or lost on a single airstrike.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Sometimes people forget the object of combat is to make the enemy surrender unconditionally that mean their total guaranteed destruction if they continue to resist
The purpose of war is to impose one's will on the enemy/enemies, and combat is but means to that end. Making soldiers surrender and civilians demoralized are best for everyone, but sometimes that isn't possible, so combat should be flexible and involve all fields of human endeavor from shock-n-awe to psychological operations and whatever else it takes to impose your will on the enemy and win the war.
 

dtulsa

Junior Member
The purpose of war is to impose one's will on the enemy/enemies, and combat is but means to that end. Making soldiers surrender and civilians demoralized are best for everyone, but sometimes that isn't possible, so combat should be flexible and involve all fields of human endeavor from shock-n-awe to psychological operations and whatever else it takes to impose your will on the enemy and win the war.
That is desirable but lots of history has evidenced will not happen notably the American civil war was not won till Grant defeated Lee or WWII these are just a few examples of unconditional surrender being the only way to end the fight in regards to Syria I don't know what would end it because of religious beliefs and differences very sad and dangerous of escalating at any time
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Blackstone, would you feel the same way regarding insurgents' targeting of government targets? For example, would you feel it's legitimate to bomb a subway station in order to kill soldiers passing through?
Yes, transportation vehicles and hubs are fair targets in war.

Doctors Without Borders has decades of experience operating hospitals in war zones and they have never allowed combatants of any stripe to operate from their hospitals. They always publicize the location of their hospitals.
I applaud Doctors Without Borders, and it's well known they do good work around the world. Most of them are heros in my book. I say "most" instead of "all" because as human beings, some of them might cross the line and render illegal assistance to some groups.

If insurgents were in the building next door and the hospital is bombed, that is still the fault of the air force commander for knowing there was a decent risk that the bomb would miss and hit the hospital, or damage the hospital from collateral damage even if the intended target was hit. In this kind of situation, the commander ought to err on the side of caution and call off the strike, as many American commanders do. No battle is won or lost on a single airstrike.
I disagree in degrees. I say that because if one side in a conflict publicly announce it'd avoid such targets, then the other side might be tempted to create just such situations to gain tactical or strategic advantage. Would I bomb a building next to a hospital the enemy uses as observation station? In most cases, probably not. On the other hand, I have no problems bombing the same building, if the enemy stationed anti-aircraft missiles. Like I said, it all depends.

Let me throw that at you. Suppose a hostile force coerced a group of Doctors Without Borders to keep operational a hospital next to a building they're using to house SCUD missile launchers targeting a large city. Do you bomb and take a chance of killing scores of innocents, or do you allow the SCUD missiles to potentially kill far more innocents in the large city?
 

Brumby

Major
Doctors Without Borders has decades of experience operating hospitals in war zones and they have never allowed combatants of any stripe to operate from their hospitals. They always publicize the location of their hospitals.

The facts on the ground may not be as clear cut as you claim reading neutrality.
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International law experts are blasting Doctors Without Borders for forcibly removing civilian patients from the aid group’s Kunduz, Afghanistan, hospital and replacing them with wounded Taliban fighters when the city fell to the rebel control in late September.

Alan Dershowitz, an acclaimed Harvard constitutional lawyer and authority in international law, said that he was not surprised that the group, known as Medecins Sans Frontieres, favored Taliban fighters over civilian patients, telling The Daily Caller News Foundation in an interview that he regards Doctors Without Borders as “Doctors Without Morals.”

Dershowitz charged the group with having a long history of anti-Western political stances and of not being neutral. He says MSF “is a heavily ideological organization that often favors radical groups over Western democracies and is highly politicized.”

The lawyer said the doctors also were hypocritical. “What they violate is their own stated mandate and that is of taking no political ideological position and treating all people in need of medical care equally. It’s just not what they do.”

The MSF’s hospital in Kunduz came to international attention when it suffered mass casualties on Oct. 3 after a U.S. Air Force gunship attacked and destroyed the trauma center, which served 22,000 patients in 2014. The group charged the U.S. attack on the compound constituted a “war crime.” Thirty people died in the attack.

Five different investigations are currently underway, and President Obama has promised compensation to the victim’s families.

Yet MSF itself may have violated a whole host of humanitarian laws by its own admission that Kunduz hospital administrators agreed to discharge Afghan civilian patients at the behest of Taliban officials and replace them with wounded rebel soldiers.

The acknowledgement was buried inside
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released by MSF that traced the internal activities at their hospital leading up to the attack.

MSF disclosed in its report that on Sept. 28, the day the city fell to rebels, hospital administrators “met with a Taliban representative to discuss the need to free beds for other critical patients due to the ongoing fighting, and therefore for some patients to be discharged.”

On Sept. 30, MSF passively reported that “a large number of patients discharged from the hospital, including some against medical advice. It is unclear whether some of these patients discharged themselves due to the discussion to free some beds between MSF and the Taliban representative.”

At one point during the Taliban occupation, the group conceded in its report that nearly half of the 140 beds at the hospital were occupied by Taliban fighters.

MSF never stated in its report that it protested, resisted or objected to the Taliban request.

The medical group has not publicly denounced the Taliban since Kunduz was freed of Taliban rule in early October. Nor did it say anything about the rebel demands in an hour-long press conference held by the group on Nov. 5 when it released its report. MFS did not respond to a DCNF request to discuss the issue.

MSF has never shirked from attacking those which it regards as wrongdoers. In its USA filing with the Internal Revenue Service for 2014, the group indicated it is more than a medical service organization and frequently speaks out publicly when they see wrongdoing.

“As part of its founding principles, MSF stands ever ready to speak out publicly on a given issue should the situation call for it,” it stated in its
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.

The removal of civilian patients for soldiers violates a number of long-held provisions of the Geneva Convention and International Humanitarian Law. Both internationally-sanctioned protocols require that administrators to protect non-combatants who are patients at medical clinics and hospitals in war zones.

In its IRS filing, MFS does say it frequently serves as an advocate for those who are neglected, in this case, Afghan civilian patients. It says it will speak out when “a certain group is being neglected, that military or political efforts are causing severe medical consequences.”

The group’s silence troubles David Rivkin, a partner at the Washington, D.C. lawyer firm of BakerHostetler who has practiced before the International Criminal Tribunal and the International Court of Justice on international humanitarian law and on the laws of war.

“The fact that they did so without any protest certainly does mean that it leaves a question mark about what they were up to,” he told TheDCNF in an interview.

He told TheDCNF he considered the MFS action at the Kunduz hospital to be “unprecedented,” saying the effect of its actions were to “transform a civilian hospital into a military hospital.”

Ken Isaacs, a vice president for the Christian relief organization Samaritan’s Purse, said the situation appeared “highly irregular.” The group founded by Franklin Graham currently operates a hospital in war-torn South Sudan and operated a second hospital there for 10 years. It also ran a hospital in Afghanistan from 2002 to 2006.

“I have not heard of a precedent like it. But I would say it’s highly irregular. It’s very unfortunate,” he told TheDCNF in an interview.
 

Geographer

Junior Member
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does not say they discharged civilians to free up room for injured Taliban fighters. If you can find a quotation saying that, please post it here. The quotations on pg. 5 read with my emphases:
MSF met with a Taliban representative to discuss the need to free beds for other critical patients due to the ongoing fighting, and therefore for some patients to be discharged and for those who required nursing follow - up to be referred to the MSF Chardara medical post.
Out of 130 patients in the KTC on Wednesday, there were approximately 65 wounded Taliban combatants that were being treated. Starting this same day a large number of patients discharged from the hospital, including some against medical advice. It is unclear whether some of these patients discharged themselves due to the discussion to free some beds between MSF and the Taliban representative or whether there were general concerns about security as rumours were circulating of a government counter - offensive to reclaim Kunduz city. At the same time as patients were being discharged from the hospital, new patients were being admitted.
The critical article says MSF made a deal with the Taliban to kick out civilian patients against medical advice in order to free beds for Taliban fighters. These quotations do not support that. It seems reasonable to free up beds for wounded, military and civilian, in anticipation of fighting. Moreover, some of the patients should left may have done so voluntarily. Patients in American hospitals leave against medical advice all the time, and they don't have to worry about an impending offensive.

It's incredible that Dershowitz, lawyer who never gets his hands dirty, can call the most experienced, reputable war zone medical group who have lost dozens of their members over the years "Doctors Without Morals." How many lives has Dershowitz saved with his own hands?

*******This thread title calls for no op-eds and no politics so I think it's best that we get back to the Syrian Civil War.
 
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Brumby

Major
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does not say they discharged civilians to free up room for injured Taliban fighters. If you can find a quotation saying that, please post it here. The quotations on pg. 5 read with my emphases:

The critical article says MSF made a deal with the Taliban to kick out civilian patients against medical advice in order to free beds for Taliban fighters. These quotations do not support that. It seems reasonable to free up beds for wounded, military and civilian, in anticipation of fighting. Moreover, some of the patients should left may have done so voluntarily. Patients in American hospitals leave against medical advice all the time, and they don't have to worry about an impending offensive.

It's incredible that Dershowitz, lawyer who never gets his hands dirty, can call the most experienced, reputable war zone medical group who have lost dozens of their members over the years "Doctors Without Morals." How many lives has Dershowitz saved with his own hands?

Whether an agreement was made with the Taliban to swap places or not is is not the main point. I posted that article to refute your assertion below :

Doctors Without Borders has decades of experience operating hospitals in war zones and they have never allowed combatants of any stripe to operate from their hospitals. They always publicize the location of their hospitals.
 

Zool

Junior Member
Yes, transportation vehicles and hubs are fair targets in war.


I applaud Doctors Without Borders, and it's well known they do good work around the world. Most of them are heros in my book. I say "most" instead of "all" because as human beings, some of them might cross the line and render illegal assistance to some groups.


I disagree in degrees. I say that because if one side in a conflict publicly announce it'd avoid such targets, then the other side might be tempted to create just such situations to gain tactical or strategic advantage. Would I bomb a building next to a hospital the enemy uses as observation station? In most cases, probably not. On the other hand, I have no problems bombing the same building, if the enemy stationed anti-aircraft missiles. Like I said, it all depends.

Let me throw that at you. Suppose a hostile force coerced a group of Doctors Without Borders to keep operational a hospital next to a building they're using to house SCUD missile launchers targeting a large city. Do you bomb and take a chance of killing scores of innocents, or do you allow the SCUD missiles to potentially kill far more innocents in the large city?

The truth is, people and military forces can find a way to justify any action. The trouble is when your actions on the field run counter to your stated principles, or when the collateral damage reaches the eyes of the public and hard questions are asked.

These scenarios come up all the time, probably in Israel most of all. Do you risk soldiers lives to neutralize a HVT hold up in a residential area, or wait for a time when civilian presence is minimal and launch a precision strike? You may kill some civilians in the process but you mitigate the number of dead to an 'acceptable' level, and so justify the action. Who's lives are more valuable?

It's the same with these terrorists in Syria. They justify brutal acts as necessary to upholding their religious principles.

Accidents happen, but nations need to abide by the international conventions of warfare or it really becomes a jungle. Achieve mission objectives within the rules, or risk morally bankrupting your society. It's a slippery slope.
 
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