Is China planning a Military Strike beyond its borders?

SampanViking

The Capitalist
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I don't see how overt military action, particularly against Eastern Afghanistan, solves anything. The main problem is that all the Uighur terrorist groups are extremely small and pathetic by international standards. They don't have cross border bases like the Taliban or the FARC or the PKK. They're too small. A Chinese "invasion" of part of Afghanistan would just cause major issues with the US and EU and do no appreciable damage to any Uighur groups. Sure China would look tough domestically, but is it worth it? I don't think so.

Uighur terrorist groups are so small and helpless that they are really a problem for the police, not something you go invading other countries about.

Hello Finn, I am not picking on you and other posters have made equally relevant and good remarks, but you do actually identify the key areas of "Perception" that I believe this is all about.

You are quite right about the Uighur groups, but If you go back to the Ambassadors letter, you will read that his "target" were those European Governments and NGO's that support them rather than the groups themselves. It is the fact that other Governments choose to support small rebel groups rather than the sovereign Chinese Government is the issue that the CCP is seeking to redress.

So the PLA roll ins in force and roars along the valley roads, swarms over the hills, Fighters swoop low and H6 Bombers drop heavy ordinance on mountain sides, Artillery booms and the Chinese Armed Forces generally make their presence known. People have very reasonably asked what if they don't find anybody? Well of course they will find somebody, its unthinkable that they would not as that is the notional reason for them going in. The people they find may not necessarily have been there before hand of course and may already be sitting in PAP Jail, but come the day they will be found along with whatever paraphernalia or literature is considered necessary and appropriate. China will tell the world that this has been found and the world will have no option but to accept it. That is the first Perception that China will present to the world.

It will of course as you say upset NATO, but this is also intended. Nobody will come to blows, there will be check points and forces will glare across at each other, but nobody is going to actually shoot at each other. The whole event will make great TV back in Europe however, where the perception will be that shooting could very easily start. Many EU nations have forces in Afghanistan and many of them are in the relatively quiet back water of Eastern Afghanistan. Public Opinion in most of these countries is highly wary of this very unpopular deployment and are very unhappy about the current rate of casualties from fighting the Taliban. How then do you think Public Opinion will react to the Perception of the risk of having to fight the Chinese Army? especially if documents found by the Chinese during their security operation appear to cast the actions of their Governments in a "questionable" light. The answer of course is that it would rock public opinion and support to its very core and threaten to reopen the very real and unresolved divides that exist in NATO and which we saw so glaringly in the aftermath of Russia,s Georgian operation last year.
The Chinese Action and the necessary reactive Stance form NATO will cause fear and consternation at home, shake the foundations of NATO and reinforce to the Capitlals of the EU the message that supporting China's overseas rebels is not a low risk activity. This is the second Perception that China will present to the world.

Through all this, the CCP will be able to tick all its boxes, the public at home will cheer as the PLA "fearlessly protect the nation from its enemies without and within" and forces NATO to watch and curse. The public of Europe will receive a rude awakening as to the reality of China and their Governments will need to seriously reappraise many of their policies regarding the support of Rebel/Dissident Chinese Groups based in the EU. In addition the Chinese view of the situation will receive a higher profile and greater recognition than it currently does and this, will be the third Perception that China will present to the world.

Ultimately Finn, simply refer to your own sig and appreciate perhaps a bit deeper what is meant by the word manoeuvre in this context.
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Hello Finn, I am not picking on you and other posters have made equally relevant and good remarks, but you do actually identify the key areas of "Perception" that I believe this is all about.

So the PLA roll ins in force and roars along the valley roads, swarms over the hills, Fighters swoop low and H6 Bombers drop heavy ordinance on mountain sides, Artillery booms and the Chinese Armed Forces generally make their presence known. People have very reasonably asked what if they don't find anybody? Well of course they will find somebody, its unthinkable that they would not as that is the notional reason for them going in. The people they find may not necessarily have been there before hand of course and may already be sitting in PAP Jail, but come the day they will be found along with whatever paraphernalia or literature is considered necessary and appropriate. China will tell the world that this has been found and the world will have no option but to accept it. That is the first Perception that China will present to the world.

It will of course as you say upset NATO, but this is also intended. Nobody will come to blows, there will be check points and forces will glare across at each other, but nobody is going to actually shoot at each other. The whole event will make great TV back in Europe however, where the perception will be that shooting could very easily start. Many EU nations have forces in Afghanistan and many of them are in the relatively quiet back water of Eastern Afghanistan. Public Opinion in most of these countries is highly wary of this very unpopular deployment and are very unhappy about the current rate of casualties from fighting the Taliban. How then do you think Public Opinion will react to the Perception of the risk of having to fight the Chinese Army? especially if documents found by the Chinese during their security operation appear to cast the actions of their Governments in a "questionable" light. The answer of course is that it would rock public opinion and support to its very core and threaten to reopen the very real and unresolved divides that exist in NATO and which we saw so glaringly in the aftermath of Russia,s Georgian operation last year.
The Chinese Action and the necessary reactive Stance form NATO will cause fear and consternation at home, shake the foundations of NATO and reinforce to the Capitlals of the EU the message that supporting China's overseas rebels is not a low risk activity. This is the second Perception that China will present to the world.

Through all this, the CCP will be able to tick all its boxes, the public at home will cheer as the PLA "fearlessly protect the nation from its enemies without and within" and forces NATO to watch and curse. The public of Europe will receive a rude awakening as to the reality of China and their Governments will need to seriously reappraise many of their policies regarding the support of Rebel/Dissident Chinese Groups based in the EU. In addition the Chinese view of the situation will receive a higher profile and greater recognition than it currently does and this, will be the third Perception that China will present to the world.

That's one way it could go, but you're still putting large PLA forces in a position where they might start shooting at NATO. That's a pretty big risk. Also, you're basically asking China to give up on the message of "peaceful rise". Is ruining cooperation on a broad spectrum of issues with both the US and the EU and scaring all of China's neighbors really worth it to get the BBC to report on Xianjiang differently? It's not like France and England and the US are sending weapons to these hopeless wannabe terrorists. This action would have a lot of consequences; off the top of my head it would ensure the continuation of the arms embargo and increase the likelihood of arms sales to Taiwan.

It's possible and it would have some benefits, but it terms of cost-benefit analysis I don't think that it's a choice that China's leadership would want to make. I realize that Ambassador's comments are a classic Chinese way to say "Hey we're serious here" (understated, through a somewhat obscure channel but showing a subtle but definite change in language). But I just can't see them getting so worked up about it that they would do something like you're suggesting. It's just a bad deal for China.
 
How then do you think Public Opinion will react to the Perception of the risk of having to fight the Chinese Army? especially if documents found by the Chinese during their security operation appear to cast the actions of their Governments in a "questionable" light. The answer of course is that it would rock public opinion and support to its very core and threaten to reopen the very real and unresolved divides that exist in NATO and which we saw so glaringly in the aftermath of Russia,s Georgian operation last year.

Well, given the way the Western media portrayed the violence in Xinjiang, do you really think they'll present information in a way to portray their governments in a questionable light? "The Chinese government announced today it has found documents that they claim to link the Uighur independence movements to outside aid. The authenticity of such documents have yet to be verified by outside observers. Meanwhile, more Afghanistani's die in the conflict." Also, what if the PLA screws up? It will be there first deployment. What if the H-6 pilots accidentally bomb a civilian town or a PLA brigade? How will that make things look?

Furthermore, you do mention the similarities to the Russian adventure in Georgia. But what are the end results of that conflict? Relations between Russian and NATO are more strained than ever and the Russians were widely condemned for the action. That is not what the CCP wants. How did the Western media portray that incident? How does their portrayal math up to the real facts? It is easy to say for how individuals informed on the issue such as us would perceive a matter, but how the average European or American views the issue through their respective media outlets may be very different. China does not need an antagonistic relationship with the West for no reason.
 

vesicles

Colonel
Don't underestimate the power of domestic opinions. CCP takes domestic opinion very seriously. I personally believe that domestic stability is No.1 on all their lists. In fact, I think most of their foreign policies had been made not to target foreign states, but with domestic opinion in mind. A perceived weakness against foreign power could be disasterous to CCP since they will lose support of the people. And this is what they fear out of all things. Being able to stand up to foreign powers has been an integral part of the "campaign platform" for CCP ever since the establishment of the party. I suspect that the Ambassador's statement is also aimed to the demestic audience to show "toughness".

If major operation is on the way, we shoud definitely see large troop movement. Is there any major deployment within China? Of course, this can be disguised as further help for the Xinjiang incident.
 
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flyzies

Junior Member
Good discussion here covering both sides of the argument.

IMO, the bottom line is this; domestic opinion is what matters most to CCP as that is what keeps CCP in power. Tho CCP is swayed by international opinion of China and itself, the public in EU, US, India or Japan are not the ones that could potentially overthrow the CCP. Therefore if domestic "unrest" in rest of China, esp if its by the Han, occurs as a result of weak public perception of CCP...and the public is screaming for CCP to get tough with Uighurs and their little terrorist organisation by sending the PLA against them, then CCP cannot afford to ignore it.
Of course, we are nowhere near that stage yet...but one should not under estimate what CCP would do in order to stay in power.

A side note on the Russia Georgia conflict as that has been brought up here. Now looking back it, I admit I did not see it coming...and i dont think many people in here did as well. No many, if any, governments in EU saw it coming...and US certainly didnt as they thought Russia couldnt and wouldnt do jack in face of NATO expansion. Point im making here is that the unexpected can happen.

Just because everyone, and the international governments, do not expect and anticipate China to send troops in response to attacks against its people and interest does not mean China wouldnt...esp when push comes to shove.
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
A side note on the Russia Georgia conflict as that has been brought up here. Now looking back it, I admit I did not see it coming...and i dont think many people in here did as well. No many, if any, governments in EU saw it coming...and US certainly didnt as they thought Russia couldnt and wouldnt do jack in face of NATO expansion. Point im making here is that the unexpected can happen.

Just because everyone, and the international governments, do not expect and anticipate China to send troops in response to attacks against its people and interest does not mean China wouldnt...esp when push comes to shove.

Exactly. One should always question the conventional wisdom in geopolitics, never assume something is true just because that's what the "experts" think, they're wrong as often as they are right.
 

Mashan

New Member
If China WAS to do anything , then I think Finn McCool's post No18 is the right way to go about it.

Why can't they use the diplomatic bag to smuggle in weapons to the country of destination?.

Do anyone here heard of the TONGS, which exists in every Chinatown of the world. :nono:
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
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I seriously doubt if adding organised crime to the discussion actually adds value, so I think Tong/Triad discussions should stop at this point. Thanks.


That's one way it could go, but you're still putting large PLA forces in a position where they might start shooting at NATO. That's a pretty big risk. Also, you're basically asking China to give up on the message of "peaceful rise". Is ruining cooperation on a broad spectrum of issues with both the US and the EU and scaring all of China's neighbors really worth it to get the BBC to report on Xianjiang differently?

I would say that the risk of actual conflict between NATO and PLA was zilch to be honest. NATO in Afghanistan is highly unlikely to want to pick a fight and the PLA would need to start the operation with unambiguous targeting of Strategic NATO positions to kick it off themselves. Ultimately, Afghanistan is not Sovereign territory and 75% is not effectively controlled by NATO or the Afghan Govt. It would put noses out of joint and sour relations for a little while but add no more delays into the general business, than already occur in bilateral ties. After all, nobody stopped buying Russian Gas last year did they?

China does not need an antagonistic relationship with the West for no reason.

Hundreds Dead, Thousands Injured and Billions worth of damage in two years. How much of a reason do you think you need?

Actually I think media would have a tough call on this, put their home Governments in a bad light or play the China Threat and scare the EU public (especially those with family in active duty in Afghanistan) to death. Besides party politics inside Europe pretty much dictates that media anti parties in national power will happily look to discredit the sitting Govts if given the opportunity and thats without considering the new media.

More importantly though, I come from a generation that grew up thinking that news from China was all about disaster and that in China it always meant millions dead and injured. Maybe that this is no longer the case and that Chinese lives are no longer considered cheap is the 4th Perception that China wishes to present to the world.
 

Roger604

Senior Member
All I have to say is if you have a mullah in Afghanistan or Pakistan tribal areas on tape claiming responsibility for training terrorists for operations in China, then that changes everything. Then I think some kind of military strike would be likely.
 
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