Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Xsizor said:

Yes, these are in Agni Prime missiles that India has been testing out. But I won't call them mature ( as the testing is ongoing). No such capability as to hit carriers ( although that may be possible as they work it out and improve it ).

How do you know it's boost glide and depressed trajectory ? Some primary sources would help. I don't believe these missiles have any of that capability BUT they are indeed MaRV with traditional ballistic trajectories. Even Iran has them.

Click to expand...

Primary sources will be a little difficult.

But check it out here:

And the attached photo. The only issue that remains unknown is the target's tracking architecture and missile seeker specifications.

Matheus S said:

Primary sources will be a little difficult.

But check it out here:

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And the attached photo. The only issue that remains unknown is the target's tracking architecture and missile seeker specifications.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1452665364219928577

Click to expand...

The post doesn't convey much.
I would safely conclude that Indian Agni Prime is just a MaRV and not a HGV.
In fact, the fins and their shape would be telling a lot even to the less initiated viewer.

Look at China's DF-15 ( developed during 1990s).

And, I really have a disdain for Indian fan boys who hype everything and blow things out of proportion. I am not saying this without substance - Brahmos 2 ( which seems like a Tsirkon export variant ) is classed as HGV ( but it's not, in the popular sense). Not even Wikipedia is safe as it seem to be hijacked by them. Have managed to bring down the quality of discussions in Quora, Twitter whatnot.

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Btw, Agni Prime is listed as MARV missile in Wikipedia.

Matheus S said:

In fact, Indians do. In fact, the fins of the Indian MaRV are very small. At very high velocities , acted fin tip control is optimal and hence ends can be made small. Those ends are for fin tip aerodynamic control within endosphere , for exosphere between the ends there are thrusters for roll pitch and yaw. Configuration allows for highly depressed trajectories and boost glide profile as per requirements.

Former DRDO chief revealed in a recent interview that Agni Prime can hit moving targets like aircraft carriers etc...

Existence of a DRDO ASBM program was already known since long

Also Agni Prime BGRV(Bost Glide Reentry Vehicle)/MARV is suspected to use laser altimeter based terrain matching navigation system to earth map's topography and discriminate target from background, the 2 top optical windows could be for same.

Click to expand...

Ahh I must admit I was not aware the Indians have produced MaRV. Well they are here testing and evaluating their first. This isn't a HGV at all of course. It is at most a slightly steerable warhead which is already immensely impressive.

Neither Zircon or MaRVs are true HGVs. Just because the twitter guy pointed out some visual geometric similarities between a publicised American HGV shape and what is clearly only a MaRV (unless the missile definitely uses some depressed trajectory which would only indicate the warhead/vehicle may be a HGV) it doesn't make it one. There were some images of publicized Chinese HGV "shapes evaluated" which do show a host of aircraft like shapes (or DF-ZF on DF-17) and conical vehicles. But one notices that those conical vehicle shapes are indeed quite different to the typical pure cone shape of a ballistic missile warhead.

I wonder if anyone still has that image showing basically two dozen various evaluated HGV designs (allegedly all HGV types) which include some design that looks like this.



My ignorance notwithstanding, I'd have suggested that this HGV design is vastly more simplistic and inferior to the aircraft like ones. Also doubting whether of not these conical "HGV" make any use of shockwaves or if they're simply aerodynamically sufficient to do the job acceptably only.

In any case the Indian MaRV is clearly not the same as those conical "HGVs", making use of shockwaves, not maneuvering quite as much or even propelled (which means it must make use of shockwaves). It is however intended to be used as a steerable warhead and if they manage to build up the sensor and communication network to properly target and guide, then they have a full ASBM. Not a HGV but an ASBM is an extremely potent weapon that the western powers could not believe in until China demonstrated it.

ougoah said:

Neither Zircon or MaRVs are true HGVs. Just because the twitter guy pointed out some visual geometric similarities between a publicised American HGV shape and what is clearly only a MaRV (unless the missile definitely uses some depressed trajectory which would only indicate the warhead/vehicle may be a HGV) it doesn't make it one. There were some images of publicized Chinese HGV "shapes evaluated" which do show a host of aircraft like shapes (or DF-ZF on DF-17) and conical vehicles. But one notices that those conical vehicle shapes are indeed quite different to the typical pure cone shape of a ballistic missile warhead.

In any case the Indian MaRV is clearly not the same as those conical "HGVs", making use of shockwaves, not maneuvering quite as much or even propelled (which means it must make use of shockwaves). It is however intended to be used as a steerable warhead and if they manage to build up the sensor and communication network to properly target and guide, then they have a full ASBM. Not a HGV but an ASBM is an extremely potent weapon that the western powers could not believe in until China demonstrated it.

Click to expand...

It is a MaRV tipped nuclear Ballistic Missile which has a future planned to end up as ASBM. That's it. Indian fanboys can scream otherwise all they want and it's for naught. The advancements with Agni Prime, as many relatively well composed articles say, are composite manufacturing, improvement in onboard Navigation/Guidance systems, better solid fuel motor and canister launch. Most of these things are pretty much achievable for India, seeing its Space Launch experience. It'd be a shame otherwise since countries like NK (esp), Iran/Israel is punching hard.

We have to drop this topic and shift attention to better ones like...
Indian Turbofan development.

French Safran & HAL in talks to make new chopper engine​

New Delhi: French defense major Safran and the state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) are in talks to jointly and indigenously manufacture a new engine that will power India’s plans to have its own medium weight military helicopters. These new rotary aircraft will replace the Russian Mi-17 transport helicopters in the coming years. There is also a possibility of a new combat chopper in the same class as the American Apache.

Sources in the defense and security establishment said that the engines will be manufactured to power different types of medium weight helicopters that the HAL is working on to meet the demand of the Air Force, Navy and the Army.
At an event organised Saturday by industry chamber FICCI, Defence Minister Rajnath Singh had said that with his French counterpart Florence Parly last week, discussions on the engines took place.

The thrust of his talks was to ask French defence firms to either collaborate with Indian companies or simply produce in India.“I am happy to say that the French government has agreed that a big French company will come to India and produce an engine, currently not made in the country, under the strategic partnership with an Indian company,” he had said at the seminar.

The sources said this was related to helicopter engines and the Indian company that will enter into a strategic partnership with Safran is HAL. The sources refused to elaborate whether this investment will be part of the

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as part of the Rafale deal. The HAL currently manufactures the LCH (Light Combat Helicopter) and the multi-role ALH (Advanced Light Helicopter), besides the Chetak choppers. Incidentally, both the ALH and the LCH are powered by Ardiden 1H1 Shakti, co-developed by HAL and Safran.

The sources said that while this is license manufactured by HAL, the new engine will be made under the strategic partnership, which will involve transfer of technology.

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IMRH reason for India-France collaboration​

The defense sources explained that the HAL is working on a twin-engine, multi-role, multi-mission chopper of about 13-tonne weightage, known as the Indian Multi-Role Helicopter (IMRH).

This helicopter is meant to replace the various variants of Russian Mi-17 helicopters which are the workhorse of the Indian Air Force, which operates a total of about 250 of them. The phasing out of the earlier versions of these helicopters are to begin around 2028, with the latest versions, Mi-17 V5 (inducted since 2011), to be the last to be phased out.

The HAL is looking at a helicopter which will have more endurance than the Mi-17s and will be used for a wide variety of operations, including transport, VVIP travel, search and rescue besides others, the sources said. The HAL also plans to manufacture a medium weight combat helicopter in the future, which will rival the American Apache currently in service with the IAF.

It will also offer a naval variant to the Indian Navy, which is also in need of medium weight choppers.

France is really keen to partner up with India in their own "win-win" deals. Well win for France that's for sure since they're making assured money. India gets advanced weaponry and a leg up in any domestic project that may benefit from French assistance and cooperation. If they manage it well, they stand to gain a lot of experience and know-how but for steep prices.

The Kaveri is now a Safran project is it? I thought the French told the Indians to drop their old Kaveri progress and simply use the M88 and just brand that as Kaveri.

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NEW DELHI — The Indian government imposed a fine on French company Dassault Aviation last month over delays in offset obligations that were part of a , Defense News has learned.

The French and Indian governments signed the €7.8 billion (U.S. $8.8 billion) in September 2016. Under the arrangement, 50% of the contract value was to be offset and executed by Dassault Aviation and its partners Safran and Thales in seven years’ time. To implement the offsets, the three firms teamed with more than 70 Indian companies and the Defence Research and Development Organisation. A senior defense scientist in India said DRDO is seeking from French businesses several technologies related to stealth capabilities, radar, aerospace engines, thrust vectoring for missiles, and materials for electronics.

An Indian Ministry of Defence official told Defense News that the penalty will come from the €185 million bank guarantee funded by Dassault Aviation as a safeguard against contractual violations. The official spoke on the condition of anonymity because the person was not authorized to speak to the media.The official would not share the value of the penalty imposed on Dassault Aviation, nor would the individual detail problems hindering implementation of the offset obligations.

Under MoD policy, original equipment manufacturers can discharge offsets by purchasing related goods or services from Indian suppliers, by making a foreign direct investment in India’s defense industry, or by transferring advanced technology.
When asked for comment, the French Armed Forces Ministry referred Defense News to Dassault Aviation, which did not return requests for comment.

French Armed Forces Minister Florence Parly and Indian Defence Minister Rajnath Singh met Dec. 17 to discuss ways to increase bilateral defense cooperation. During the 3rd annual dialogue, the MoD pointed out that several French defense companies were not cooperating in the transfer of technology to DRDO.

The MoD source said French businesses have been claiming the Indian firms who were expecting to receive technology transfers do not meet the necessary core competencies. “It is well known that the original equipment manufacturers have been facing difficulty in discharging their offset obligations. This may partly be on account of the policy,” said Amit Cowshish, a former financial adviser for acquisitions at the MoD. He recommended the ministry meet with OEMs, ascertain difficulties their facing and then take corrective action.

ougoah said:

Ahh I must admit I was not aware the Indians have produced MaRV. Well they are here testing and evaluating their first. This isn't a HGV at all of course. It is at most a slightly steerable warhead which is already immensely impressive.

Neither Zircon or MaRVs are true HGVs. Just because the twitter guy pointed out some visual geometric similarities between a publicised American HGV shape and what is clearly only a MaRV (unless the missile definitely uses some depressed trajectory which would only indicate the warhead/vehicle may be a HGV) it doesn't make it one. There were some images of publicized Chinese HGV "shapes evaluated" which do show a host of aircraft like shapes (or DF-ZF on DF-17) and conical vehicles. But one notices that those conical vehicle shapes are indeed quite different to the typical pure cone shape of a ballistic missile warhead.

I wonder if anyone still has that image showing basically two dozen various evaluated HGV designs (allegedly all HGV types) which include some design that looks like this.

View attachment 80154

My ignorance notwithstanding, I'd have suggested that this HGV design is vastly more simplistic and inferior to the aircraft like ones. Also doubting whether of not these conical "HGV" make any use of shockwaves or if they're simply aerodynamically sufficient to do the job acceptably only.

In any case the Indian MaRV is clearly not the same as those conical "HGVs", making use of shockwaves, not maneuvering quite as much or even propelled (which means it must make use of shockwaves). It is however intended to be used as a steerable warhead and if they manage to build up the sensor and communication network to properly target and guide, then they have a full ASBM. Not a HGV but an ASBM is an extremely potent weapon that the western powers could not believe in until China demonstrated it.

Click to expand...

The Agni Prime will be the basis for Indian Anti ship ballistic missile (ASBM) with the ability to target carriers and other ships at ranges greater than 1500 km.

For reconnaissance and targeting architecture of a supposed Indian anti-ship ballistic system?

This is few i know, most is classified & not known to me

Space – EO , radar , ELINT/SIGINT satellites

Aerial – PAs, MPAs , stratospheric UAVs (pseudosatellites) , HALE/MALE UAVs , stratospheric aerostats

Surface – long range radars , OTH radar , multistatic radars , chain of coastal surface radars ( already being deployed) in own & foreign countries

Sub surface – seabed hydrophone arrays (already deployed) , now laser based sensors , autonomous gliders with very high endurance

Pic HAL CATS Infinity pseudosatellite under development


Clarification : Majority of the above mentioned systems intended for reconnaissance and targeting architecture for long range systems are under development and work in progress and will take many more years to come online.

The ASBM will be fitted with combined quad recivers (GPS, GLONASS, NAVIC, GAGAN) + dual tri redundant RLG & MEMS based INS + X band anti ship seeker for terminal guidance

The MaRV will be powered on till endgame and able to maneuver via actuated control surfaces and Reaction control system-velocity trimming module (RCS-VTM)

India is buying Kongsberg’s NSM for its NH-60 helicopters

DRDO has helicopter/aircraft launched NASM-SR/NASM-MR anti ship missiles under development

Brahmos range is being increased to around 1000 km

Lot of domestic options within next 5 years

Pic of DRDO NASM-SR model


India is slowly developing a long reach kill chain with OODA functionality in support of its new family of long range vectors

Another example from the new family is Indian SMART – worlds longest range supersonic anti submarine weapon at 650 km


Also there is 2 indigenous long range hypersonic missile systems under development both air launched & ground launched

Not to be confused with brahmos-2 which is different and a joint venture

All 3 will have the potential to be used in anti ship role at very long ranges

This is the model of in-service B-05 aka K-15 SLBM which is based off Shourya and hence if the alleged ASBM is based off Shourya it will look more or less like this. As I said before it is a hypersonic ballistic cum cruise missile with a speed of Mach 7.


The missile in the picture attached below is interesting because allegedly it could be India’s first ASBM. Officially no information or confirmation regarding the same.

Except in 2014 the drdo chief gave an interview where he provided little information regarding the same.

Quote ” a long range anti-ship missile which can prevent aircraft carriers from coming within 1500-2000 km of our shores are also being pursued. The long range anti-ship missile is going to be a ballistic missile with a seeker which can hit ships at long range. ” End quote.

AFAIK the said system was supposed to be based on existing hypersonic Shaurya ballistic cum cruise missile. But again no official confirmation.

Given the Chinese threat in Indian Ocean such systems will inevitably be developed ( or already deployed )

ABM/BMD:

India is the 4th country after US Russia Israel to have own indigenous BMD/ABM system deployed

It comprises of AAD endo-atmospheric & PDV exo-atmospheric interceptors

System guarantees 99.8% kill probability through simultaneous launch of 2 endo & 2 exo atmospheric interceptors at a hostile ballistic target of 3000 km range class

India is now on final development stage of advanced AD-1 & AD-2 hypersonic endo & exo atmospheric interceptors which can intercept > 5000 km range targets ( ICBMs )

Slide from DRDO presentation comparing US THAAD and DRDO PDV exo atmospheric interceptors


Another slide from DRDO presentation comparing US PAC-3 and DRDO AAD endo atmospheric interceptors


Indian BMD/ABM employs long range GaAs and GaN AESA based radars

Initially 1 Israeli radar (LRTR-1) was bought range > 600 km

Later DRDO improved Israeli radar to > 1500 km (LRTR-2) then own built radar > 2500 km (LRTR-3)

Fire control is by MFCR a JV with France

Now DRDO own LRMFR to provide fire control, range is many times than MFCR (range classified)

Then VLRTR ( Very long range tracking radar ) > 3000 km. 2 units are deployed by NTRO & defence space agency (DSA) for military space surveillance and tracking

Also ISRO has own civilian AESA space surveillance radar (MTOR) which can track a 30cm by 30cm objects at > 800 km

Pic DRDO LRMFR , it is huge and mounted on large building and also on DRDO project 20 ship ( part of open sea range )

Matheus S said:

The Agni Prime will be the basis for Indian Anti ship ballistic missile (ASBM) with the ability to target carriers and other ships at ranges greater than 1500 km.
For reconnaissance and targeting architecture of a supposed Indian anti-ship ballistic system? This is few i know, most is classified & not known to me

Space – EO , radar , ELINT/SIGINT satellites
Aerial – PAs, MPAs , stratospheric UAVs (pseudosatellites) , HALE/MALE UAVs , stratospheric aerostats
Surface – long range radars , OTH radar , multistatic radars , chain of coastal surface radars ( already being deployed) in own & foreign countries
Sub surface – seabed hydrophone arrays (already deployed) , now laser based sensors , autonomous gliders with very high endurance
Pic HAL CATS Infinity pseudosatellite under development

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Clarification : Majority of the above mentioned systems intended for reconnaissance and targeting architecture for long range systems are under development and work in progress and will take many more years to come online.

Click to expand...

Matheus S said:

The ASBM will be fitted with combined quad recivers (GPS, GLONASS, NAVIC, GAGAN) + dual tri redundant RLG & MEMS based INS + X band anti ship seeker for terminal guidance

The MaRV will be powered on till endgame and able to maneuver via actuated control surfaces and Reaction control system-velocity trimming module (RCS-VTM)
India is buying Kongsberg’s NSM for its NH-60 helicopters
DRDO has helicopter/aircraft launched NASM-SR/NASM-MR anti ship missiles under development
Brahmos range is being increased to around 1000 km
Lot of domestic options within next 5 years

Pic of DRDO NASM-SR model

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India is slowly developing a long reach kill chain with OODA functionality in support of its new family of long range vectors
Another example from the new family is Indian SMART – worlds longest range supersonic anti submarine weapon at 650 km

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Also there is 2 indigenous long range hypersonic missile systems under development both air launched & ground launched
Not to be confused with brahmos-2 which is different and a joint venture
All 3 will have the potential to be used in anti ship role at very long ranges
This is the model of in-service B-05 aka K-15 SLBM which is based off Shourya and hence if the alleged ASBM is based off Shourya it will look more or less like this. As I said before it is a hypersonic ballistic cum cruise missile with a speed of Mach 7.

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The missile in the picture attached below is interesting because allegedly it could be India’s first ASBM. Officially no information or confirmation regarding the same. Except in 2014 the drdo chief gave an interview where he provided little information regarding the same.
Quote ” a long range anti-ship missile which can prevent aircraft carriers from coming within 1500-2000 km of our shores are also being pursued. The long range anti-ship missile is going to be a ballistic missile with a seeker which can hit ships at long range. ” End quote. AFAIK the said system was supposed to be based on existing hypersonic Shaurya ballistic cum cruise missile. But again no official confirmation.

Click to expand...

You spelled out Indian Wishlist. The country has no comprehensive capability ( no solid electronics manufacturing base) that every other product is a product of foreign JV or LIcense production. Radars are almost always Israeli supported.

Brahmos 1000 km doesn't exist. India is engaged in Reverse engineering the Russian systems for the 300 km range Brahmos. It may be a goal but that's it. Brahmos 2 is to be a Russian Tsirkon export variant. India would try to do some "indianification" similar to what it does to Brahmos.

An SLBM becomes a "Hypersonic Ballistic cum Cruise missile ?" What kind of wordplay wizardry is that ? Only Jai Hinders will spurt something like that. A ballistic missile going in depressed trajectory would've sufficed.

India still struggles to field a subsonic cruise missile ( ). It's plagued by failures. India can't get a proper MALE/HALE drone to work ( Rustom ?).

Evidently, India's strength is in Ballistics / rocketry. But so is Iran or NK. SMART missile is one thing to note ( I like the idea, sticking a lightweight torpedo to a solid rocket).

The last image you linked is merely a Canister launch system and was used for the Agni Prime missile.