Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
The attack was apparently about taking out a single individual. But seen from a broader angle It seems to be a case of corruption and power abuse that has crept into DRDO.

India's adversaries could exploit the weakness and corruption to their advantage. Especially when India is going to be crowded with US/UK/EU weapons. Remember that French Scorpene and Brahmos Leak ? Yeah.

No one gonna comment on the fact that the bomb didn't work as intended?
 

Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
India tested the Agni-P (for the second time apparently). Range 1000km -2000km. India's own 'DF-21'?
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India has tested its next-generation nuclear-capable ballistic missile on Saturday. The ground-based weapon is designed to strike enemy fleets in the Indo-Pacific, the country’s media said.

The ‘Agni-P’ missile, also called ‘Agni Prime’, was launched from a small island off the coast of the state of Odisha in eastern India.

The launch was a success, completing “all mission objectives with high level of accuracy,” India’s Ministry of Defense said in a statement.

The missile, which can strike targets at a range between 1,000km (621 miles) and 2,000km (1,242 miles), was first test-fired in June. According to media reports, the missile can be used against enemy fleets in the Indo-Pacific and carry a lower-yield nuclear warhead.

So Agni Prime is intended for striking enemy fleets. We can expect to whom that is directed to. It still delivers a 'small' nuclear warhead, not a conventional one. That means its accuracy is not comparable to the DF-21D. It is certainly not a conventional weapon.

More importantly, what does this say about India's No-First-Use nuclear policy? If the PLAN and PN fleets are already inside the strike range of the Agni-P. They are definitely not there to launch first-strike nukes. That would have been done by ballistic missiles, far away from the Indian coast. Is India thinking of using nukes as a potential first strike weapon against PLAN and PN fleets? It does appear to look like that to me. Yet again, India is underestimating that China and Pakistan have nukes too.
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
It isn't about whether India underestimates that China has superior nuclear force and capabilities (they don't) but having another means to deter or counter a Chinese naval attack on India. This won't happen unless many unlikely things occur but the Indian thinking is to have something that would make China think twice about sending a massive naval force to attack India in India's front yard. Almost the same way back in the 1990s where China started developing the ASBM "assassin's mace" weapon against USN fleets. I would imagine that China pursued nuclear warheads delivered by "ASBM" first before refining the weapon over 20 years to have various conventional warheads replacing those nuclear ones.

India is basically starting to explore the ASBM but has yet to develop the entire sensor network (the equivalent types of satellites and HALE drones China has as part of ASBM network) and is only starting so they simply have an IRBM. It is minimally different and is not an ASBM but could feature a bit more of an attempt at improving its accuracy to a point where a KT yield warhead could do enough damage to a fleet sailing quickly.

The idea isn't about using nukes on ships because that escalates everything in an escalation chain where India would fare worse than a nuclear escalation between a 1970s China and USA. It is about beginning the journey on developing and refining an ASBM over time to a point where it is able to carry conventional warheads onto moving sea targets. As things stand only China has developed full ASBM with Iran being the only other that is further along on this development cycle than giants like Russia and the US. Reason those two have not is less about capability and more about requirement. Well for Russia, they have so many SSNs, supersonic AShM and now hypersonic AShM.

India has a long term goal with this development and it needs to start somewhere. However it is truly pointless since there is close to no situation where China would be sending fleets to attack India from the Indian Ocean. On that consideration it seems more like a me too vanity project which at the moment amounts to something basically identical to a pretty third rate Indian IRBM they simply want to call a "first step" of developing a "ASBM".

The key to ASBM is more in the guidance of the MaRV, the sensor networks, and their communication. At the moment India has no MaRV tech, no sensor tech of any close equivalence to the subsets of Yaogan, Shijian, Gaofen, Tianxin series of special purpose satellites with some capabilities met only by American ones and no others. India was struggling with a Rustom when China has been flying WZ-7s, WZ-8s, and Divine Eagle HALEs around for years. The communication and processing tech within platforms would require decades and many billions to develop for India and they have not started a single serious project in either of these two general domains.

So the effort here with ASBM may be presented as a "we intend to eventually..." sort of project but at the moment it seems more like a me too project with no real use since any war would be fought over the land borders. PLAN cannot afford to divert any significant fleet force to engage in some kinetic exchange with India even if a full blown war was to happen. This ASBM against Pakistan is overkill and inviting nuclear escalation if used when it hasn't been completed or a total waste of IRBMs if it has been completed since PN is really a rather unimpressive force even with some modernisation and relatively modern token equipments. IN honestly outgun PN by quite a margin that it can comfortably hold or defeat the PN without having to use higher value assets like ASBM.
 
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Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
It isn't about whether India underestimates that China has superior nuclear force and capabilities (they don't) but having another means to deter or counter a Chinese naval attack on India. This won't happen unless many unlikely things occur but the Indian thinking is to have something that would make China think twice about sending a massive naval force to attack India in India's front yard. Almost the same way back in the 1990s where China started developing the ASBM "assassin's mace" weapon against USN fleets. I would imagine that China pursued nuclear warheads delivered by "ASBM" first before refining the weapon over 20 years to have various conventional warheads replacing those nuclear ones.

India is basically starting to explore the ASBM but has yet to develop the entire sensor network (the equivalent types of satellites and HALE drones China has as part of ASBM network) and is only starting so they simply have an IRBM. It is minimally different and is not an ASBM but could feature a bit more of an attempt at improving its accuracy to a point where a KT yield warhead could do enough damage to a fleet sailing quickly.

The idea isn't about using nukes on ships because that escalates everything in an escalation chain where India would fare worse than a nuclear escalation between a 1970s China and USA. It is about beginning the journey on developing and refining an ASBM over time to a point where it is able to carry conventional warheads onto moving sea targets. As things stand only China has developed full ASBM with Iran being the only other that is further along on this development cycle than giants like Russia and the US. Reason those two have not is less about capability and more about requirement. Well for Russia, they have so many SSNs, supersonic AShM and now hypersonic AShM.

India has a long term goal with this development and it needs to start somewhere. However it is truly pointless since there is close to no situation where China would be sending fleets to attack India from the Indian Ocean. On that consideration it seems more like a me too vanity project which at the moment amounts to something basically identical to a pretty third rate Indian IRBM they simply want to call a "first step" of developing a "ASBM".

The key to ASBM is more in the guidance of the MaRV, the sensor networks, and their communication. At the moment India has no MaRV tech, no sensor tech of any close equivalence to the subsets of Yaogan, Shijian, Gaofen, Tianxin series of special purpose satellites with some capabilities met only by American ones and no others. India was struggling with a Rustom when China has been flying WZ-7s, WZ-8s, and Divine Eagle HALEs around for years. The communication and processing tech within platforms would require decades and many billions to develop for India and they have not started a single serious project in either of these two general domains.

So the effort here with ASBM may be presented as a "we intend to eventually..." sort of project but at the moment it seems more like a me too project with no real use since any war would be fought over the land borders. PLAN cannot afford to divert any significant fleet force to engage in some kinetic exchange with India even if a full blown war was to happen. This ASBM against Pakistan is overkill and inviting nuclear escalation if used when it hasn't been completed or a total waste of IRBMs if it has been completed since PN is really a rather unimpressive force even with some modernisation and relatively modern token equipments. IN honestly outgun PN by quite a margin that it can comfortably hold or defeat the PN without having to use higher value assets like ASBM.
I think the real question is why India must mention the Agni-P as some kind of nuclear armed deterrence against a naval fleet? You're right to observe that it'll be pointless against the PN. The IN can readily take on the PN without nukes. So it is definitely intended for the PLAN.

But I would disagree that the PLAN is not considering entering into the Indian Ocean if and when needed. India has been making noises about blocking China out of the Malacca Straits. Regardless of how idiotic that idea is, its still a remote possibility. The PLARF could sink a good chunk of the IN, but the PLAN is still needed to for actual naval combat.

So now India is developing an IRBM with a small nuclear warhead to threaten the PLAN if it gets within range of the Indian coast. It is common knowledge that the PLAN doesn't need nukes to defeat the IN. So India is resorting to threatening to use nukes on the PLAN if it cannot stop the PLAN from getting that close. It is a type of nuclear blackmail. That contradicts India's NUF policy.

Agni-P also is an idiotic idea considering that China has nukes to shoot back. Also, it is not comparable with the ASBM development in China. Before China had viable ASBMs, its main anti-naval missiles was the traditional AshM. China was making them faster and deadlier for awhile. Nukes are only for nuclear war, which was clear enough. Only when the Chinese ASBM development was finally complete, that China announced their arrival.
 

Suetham

Senior Member
Registered Member
At the moment India has no MaRV tech...
In fact, Indians do. In fact, the fins of the Indian MaRV are very small. At very high velocities , acted fin tip control is optimal and hence ends can be made small. Those ends are for fin tip aerodynamic control within endosphere , for exosphere between the ends there are thrusters for roll pitch and yaw. Configuration allows for highly depressed trajectories and boost glide profile as per requirements.

Former DRDO chief revealed in a recent interview that Agni Prime can hit moving targets like aircraft carriers etc...

Existence of a DRDO ASBM program was already known since long

Also Agni Prime BGRV(Bost Glide Reentry Vehicle)/MARV is suspected to use laser altimeter based terrain matching navigation system to earth map's topography and discriminate target from background, the 2 top optical windows could be for same.
 

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Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
In fact, Indians do. In fact, the fins of the Indian MaRV are very small. At very high velocities , acted fin tip control is optimal and hence ends can be made small. Those ends are for fin tip aerodynamic control within endosphere , for exosphere between the ends there are thrusters for roll pitch and yaw. Configuration allows for highly depressed trajectories and boost glide profile as per requirements.

Former DRDO chief revealed in a recent interview that Agni Prime can hit moving targets like aircraft carriers etc...

Existence of a DRDO ASBM program was already known since long

Also Agni Prime BGRV(Bost Glide Reentry Vehicle)/MARV is suspected to use laser altimeter based terrain matching navigation system to earth map's topography and discriminate target from background, the 2 top optical windows could be for same.
Yes, these are in Agni Prime missiles that India has been testing out. But I won't call them mature ( as the testing is ongoing). No such capability as to hit carriers ( although that may be possible as they work it out and improve it ).

How do you know it's boost glide and depressed trajectory ? Some primary sources would help. I don't believe these missiles have any of that capability BUT they are indeed MaRV with traditional ballistic trajectories. Even Iran has them.
 
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