How can CHina catch up with the West when its hands are tied?

Also you can gauge where a country is heading by researching the fields freshman are signing up for, we are not creating enough engineers and scientists. Open market is good but an open market that reward quick money short term thinking and ignore long term social goals is your worst enemy.

Actually, it is very hard for many engineers out of college to get a job in the US. It's been that way for at least the last two-three years. Especially in EE, where the labor market is highly oversaturated. I think the choices made by American students and programs offered by the universities reflect on the overall trends you see in the job markets here.


Reasons such as China going through its industrial revolution and America and Britain were just as bad, is no excuse.

Actually, it more than is. And it's not just American and Britain. Look into the industrial/economic histories of Germany, France, and Eastern Europe. Heck, even look at Korea's and Japan's. Remember the, "made in Japan," stigma?
 
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Schumacher

Senior Member
. Unless you confine yourself to reading academic publications, it’s a phrase even higher calibre magazines resort to. I also note some very good posters here cite material that contain phrases such " an unnamed petagon/Whitehouse official said such n such.......without as much as a rebuke from you.
Your posts also contain prejudgements, not exactly a scholarly approach is it?

Once again you are skirting the question, which is concerned with the statements related to the CURRENT position. The use of the word 'soon', is not exactly definitive.Rather strange for someone who expects preciseness in ones post
Note nowhere in my posts did I ever suggest China would'nt surpass Americas economic output.

The key word is 'good posters' isn't it ? especially those who have established to be very knowledgeable. Don't feel you're being treated unfairly, that's how the real world works. When you're known as a poster who reference a Tom Clancy wannabe or even BBC for serious topic, it's natural a heavier burden of proof will be placed on you.

You obviously didn't read the link I point to. It talks of about one decade time-frame. That's not definitive enough for you ?
 

Mashan

New Member
Actually, it is very hard for many engineers out of college to get a job in the US. It's been that way for at least the last two-three years. Especially in EE, where the labor market is highly oversaturated. I think the choices made by American students and programs offered by the universities reflect on the overall trends you see in the job markets here.




Actually, it more than is. And it's not just American and Britain. Look into the industrial/economic histories of Germany, France, and Eastern Europe. Heck, even look at Korea's and Japan's. Remember the, "made in Japan," stigma?

I totally agreed about the shortage of engineering jobs in the US, back in the 70s I was a EE major and because of the economy I was forced to switch to CS, at that time I have no freaking idea about computers/main frame. But the job market at that time for CS major was growing like crazy, so I lucky out in a way. Currently Japan is facing the same problem we have on losing their industrial base but they choose to keep the manufacturing of the top of the line electronics and cars in Japan and farm out the low and medium end products to China, also product some car models in the US this way their can at least keep their best engineers and workers employed in Japan. Seems like the Koreans are doing the same.

Currently China have many different growth models at it disposal, which path China takes in the future only time can tell, but I am sure it won't be identical to the US.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Also you can gauge where a country is heading by researching the fields freshman are signing up for, we are not creating enough engineers and scientists. Open market is good but an open market that reward quick money short term thinking and ignore long term social goals is your worst enemy.


Math and science scores are lagging badly in the US compared to Asia and Eastern Europe. The fact that young Chinese followed by Eastern Europeans trump coding contests---contests heavily watched by IBM, Oracle, Microsoft, Google, etc,---is representative of this. Without good math and science scores, you won't get good engineers and scientists. One reason why the smarter ones are moving into financial management and lawyering these days.

If you don't up your math and science scores, the engineers that led the US revolution in sciences in these last few decades are retiring or expiring, and little to replace them except immigrant scientists and engineers. Already high tech companies in the US like Microsoft are complaining against US government initiatives to stop outsourcing brain labor, so much that Ballmer threatened to stop hiring in the US. Intel and Microsoft, especially with Bill Gates have lobbied in the Congress on issues of immigrant visas for high tech engineers.

Its a critical issue in the IT industry. So sad that other people are ignoring this.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
You obviously didn't read the link I point to. It talks of about one decade time-frame. That's not definitive enough for you ?


I was actually referring to your use of the word "soon" in post 102

Quote
"it'll be hard for the military to sustain the lead."

I don't know if Im mistaken in thinking that you are inferring China may take the lead, but surely if this is so, It would go against their statement of " China's peaceful rise" If you look at Blasko's presentation in the army thread,you will find that this American military intelligence officer, believes China's modernisation is planned to take 60yrs, culminating in some form of parity with the West on their 100th anniversary.

Anway I suggest we leave the bickering and move on. Perhaps someone might be prepared to start a thread about whether people with wacky believes should be taken seriously, like the creationists versus the evolutionists, cheers:)
 
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bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Math and science scores are lagging badly in the US compared to Asia and Eastern Europe.
Its a critical issue in the IT industry. So sad that other people are ignoring this.

Regarding engineering graduates:
Sometime ago there was a Mackinsey report.to which Im certain a fair number of forum members must have seen as it was reproduced by a number of periodicals etc/. Ive forgotten the actual percentages,but it did say a poll taken from international corporates found only a small amount of graduate engineers as suitable for employment.Even factoring out the language barrier as a reason, the numbers were still high. It also suggested some of the degrees werent degrees in the strictest sense but associate ones, which amount to nothing more than a tech institute diploma.

With the expected interest in developing new nuclear power stations, perhaps its the right time for anyone interested in science, take up nuclear engineering.

As a side thought, what's the Chances of the countries getting together for another "Bretton Woods" style sort out?
 
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bladerunner

Banned Idiot
I am not trying to debate you on this subject. Just few observation, I fail to see where is this source of growth, is going to come from. Individual and goverment is so severely hamstrung by debt that they are all saving their money instead of spending. The day of careless spending is over. In the next decade the need to refinance social wealth fare spending will skyrocket.

And with much of Europe in the same sort of mess, some posters here suggest for up to ten yrs, I wonder if China's economy can stand the stress?


People . It used to be that US is the magnet for talented student all over the world. But with improving living condition and more restrictive immigration I believe the talent intake will be severely reduced.....with such large destruction of wealth there will be less money for University endowment, research grant and Goverment program for important but can be delayed research
I think you overlook several things here, Sure the money might be down but they can cherrypick which academic disciplines to support, and they are a nation of philanthropists. And it takes time to build up quality institutions for post grad. studies.
As for asian institutions: From memory, the last time I looked,not one was in the top 10, and as for the sciences, again from memory, only several 6/8?, and mostly Japanese was awarded the Nobel Prize.in past several decades. It has also been suggested that the Asian system of rote learning test taking and multi level bureaucracy, prevents the development of free and innovative thinking. A handicap which would surely handicap them in copying the best learning institutions of the West.
In New Zealand Passes are gained in some engineering papers through the quality of research and projects carried out through the year, with a formal examination being discarded completely.
 
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bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Actually, it is very hard for many engineers out of college to get a job in the US. It's been that way for at least the last two-three years. Especially in EE, where the labor market is highly oversaturated. I think the choices made by American students and programs offered by the universities reflect on the overall trends you see in the job markets here.

Time to be a nuclear engineer



Actually, it more than is. And it's not just American and Britain. Look into the industrial/economic histories of Germany, France, and Eastern Europe. Heck, even look at Korea's and Japan's. Remember the, "made in Japan," stigma?
Only usual poor quality allegations,so apart from that nope.
 

Schumacher

Senior Member
I was actually referring to your use of the word "soon" in post 102
Quote
"it'll be hard for the military to sustain the lead."
I don't know if Im mistaken in thinking that you are inferring China may take the lead, but surely if this is so, It would go against their statement of " China's peaceful rise" If you look at Blasko's presentation in the army thread,you will find that this American military intelligence officer, believes China's modernisation is planned to take 60yrs, culminating in some form of parity with the West on their 100th anniversary.

Anway I suggest we leave the bickering and move on. Perhaps someone might be prepared to start a thread about whether people with wacky believes should be taken seriously, like the creationists versus the evolutionists, cheers:)

When talking about nations, one decade is definitely 'soon'. Even when individuals make plans, investments etc, it's routine to look at a decade or even more. It's really not that long term.
When the economy becomes the biggest, they can spend a small percentage of the GDP on military & still get a very big military. 'Peaceful rise' doesn't mean not to have a big military. Nations can have military that are far from the best/biggest and yet become a threat to peace in many ways..

A thread about wacky people huh ? I think you would be a good candidate to start the thread. lol
 
Only usual poor quality allegations,so apart from that nope.

I mean actually study the history, which goes far past poor quality allegations my friend.

There is a plethora of labor violations, industrial disasters, and corruption that went along with the urbanization/industrialization phases of the first nations to industrialize. Triangle Shirtwaist killed more workers than any major industrial accident in China in the past two decades. Food contamination in the US was far worse than the scandals coming out of China, have you ever read the Jungle? Very eye-opening... I didn't eat processed meat for a whole 3 months afterwords. Sure did the body good ;). Also read up on the Pinkerton's, etc. I can name you just as many examples from other nations, but I think the US examples are probably the easiest for us here on the forum to relate to.
 
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