How can CHina catch up with the West when its hands are tied?

FriedRiceNSpice said:

I mean actually study the history, which goes far past poor quality allegations my friend.

There is a plethora of labor violations, industrial disasters, and corruption that went along with the urbanization/industrialization phases of the first nations to industrialize. Triangle Shirtwaist killed more workers than any major industrial accident in China in the past two decades. Food contamination in the US was far worse than the scandals coming out of China, have you ever read the Jungle? Very eye-opening... I didn't eat processed meat for a whole 3 months afterwords. Sure did the body good . Also read up on the Pinkerton's, etc. I can name you just as many examples from other nations, but I think the US examples are probably the easiest for us here on the forum to relate to.

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I was replying to your question on Japan, saying nothing much other than quality issues. Meanwhile I'm reasonably informed on the rest of the world consumer quality issues, and food additives etc etc.
But the main point I'm making is that in a lot of instances China sweeps it under the carpet, hey Im sure the west did that as well in the past, but they have since changed, with a open and transparent inquiry, free press, being the order of the Day.Meanwhile to repeat the mistakes made by other countries is, in my opinion the height of stupidity.
By doing what some say is sensationalising the story Im doing the victims of these actions a favour.
Here's a interesting point from one of our newspapers. It comments on some new demographic studies done by the "French National Institute of Demographic Studies". It basically confirms what has been suggested in the past.
IF PROVEN TRUE Asia will have its own ageing population problem especially China when its retiring population is expected to double every 25yrs. I think that could result in the same problems that confront the West.

But the main point I'm making is that in a lot of instances China sweeps it under the carpet, hey Im sure the west did that as well in the past, but they have since changed, with a open and transparent inquiry, free press, being the order of the Day.Meanwhile to repeat the mistakes made by other countries is, in my opinion the height of stupidity.

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First off, Japan did not industrialize in the 1950's. Reconstruction is not the same as industrializing. It already had the institutions, social structures, and technical know-how in place.

Second off, these are not conscious mistakes that these nations made during their process of industrializing. They are natural byproducts of the type of system that must be in place for maximal growth. If they could be avoided, I'm sure the US would have done so. After all, it had Britain's history to learn from as well. Regulations and oversight lead to red tape which slows economic growth. I'd rather see China the way it is today than India. The lives lost simply do not matter to most Chinese. In China, the country always comes before the individual.

Thirdly, the US has always had a free press. Ultimately, that free press did contribute to better standards and quality controls, but it took 60 years before that happened so. The largest reason behind the changes that occurred was as the standard of living rose, people had the luxury to worry about such issues. Even in the USSR, which was very authoritarian and suffered from low quality consumer goods throughout the century, enjoyed better safety standards and less industrial accidents as time went on.

Lastly, things are improving in China and I do not agree that things are swept under the carpet. During 2007, there was a major accident at Qinghe Steel Production Plant. It was highly publicized by the state media, and facility was forced to pay out compensation at a minimum of $26,000 USD to each victims family (an amount comparable to the sum in Western nations, relatively). That incident is certainly not the exception, and is slowly becoming the norm.

FriedRiceNSpice said:

First off, Japan did not industrialize in the 1950's. Reconstruction is not the same as industrializing. It already had the institutions, social structures, and technical know-how in place.

Second off, these are not conscious mistakes that these nations made during their process of industrializing. They are natural byproducts of the type of system that must be in place for maximal growth. If they could be avoided, I'm sure the US would have done so. After all, it had Britain's history to learn from as well. Regulations and oversight lead to red tape which slows economic growth. I'd rather see China the way it is today than India. The lives lost simply do not matter to most Chinese. In China, the country always comes before the individual.

Thirdly, the US has always had a free press. Ultimately, that free press did contribute to better standards and quality controls, but it took 60 years before that happened so. The largest reason behind the changes that occurred was as the standard of living rose, people had the luxury to worry about such issues. Even in the USSR, which was very authoritarian and suffered from low quality consumer goods throughout the century, enjoyed better safety standards and less industrial accidents as time went on.

Lastly, things are improving in China and I do not agree that things are swept under the carpet. During 2007, there was a major accident at Qinghe Steel Production Plant. It was highly publicized by the state media, and facility was forced to pay out compensation at a minimum of $26,000 USD to each victims family (an amount comparable to the sum in Western nations, relatively). That incident is certainly not the exception, and is slowly becoming the norm.

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I said alot are, but that besides the point, Im glad to hear things are improving.I.As for freedom to report, do you remember the arresting of the most recent Chinese activist who campaigned on social injustices etc etc., I cant remember his name, while such actions can be viewed dimly by the West, whats your opinion on such actions?

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In China, the country always comes before the individual.

WEsterners would find that hard to understand, I don't think Kennedy in his 'Ask not of your country but what you could do for your country" speech, could agree with Chinas approch. to industrialisation.

As for freedom to report, do you remember the arresting of the most recent Chinese activist who campaigned on social injustices etc etc., I cant remember his name, while such actions can be viewed dimly by the West, whats your opinion on such actions?

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I cannot comment too much for fear of wandering into politics, but I agree that China does not have a free press or freedom of speech. However, my contention is that a free press is neither necessary nor sufficient in leading to better safety and labor standards. In an authoritarian system, if the government decides its wrong for manufacturer's industries to endanger the lives of either their employees or consumers, it will step in as fast as any democratic government. I simply pulled up a couple of examples from America's past as well as China's present. Even without a free press, news of an incident can spread rapidly leading to public outrage/outcry, and demonstrations "mass incidents," do occur in a very large scale across China.

WEsterners would find that hard to understand, I don't think Kennedy in his 'Ask not of your country but what you could do for your country" speech, could agree with Chinas approch. to industrialisation.

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Its a difference between cultural, history, and perspective. In general, Asian cultures are more collectivist while Western ones are more individualistic. Do you feel there are any notable differences between China and America's approaches to industrialization?

Does anyone know when Europe or China made it mandatory for Trains to be equipped with Air Breaks?

The reason I asked this question was I found out that it took the US 21 years to make the Air break mandatory on trains when the US passed "the US railroad's safety appliance Act of 1893" and George Westinghouse patented the air break in 1871.

Before the Invention of the Air break a train Break man had to clime atop the train cars, and manually turn a wheal that engaged the Breaks on each car. This job had an outrageous accident rate.

And with much of Europe in the same sort of mess, some posters here suggest for up to ten yrs, I wonder if China's economy can stand the stress?

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Let do the number again will you?. China's export to US and Europe is roughly 500 billion dollars but most of the export consists of daily life necessities and relatively cheap . So assuming it drop by a third which is unlikely, the export will drop by 164 billion out of 4.4 Trillion dollars economy . That will worked out roughly about 3.5 to 3.8% reduction in growth. The 500 billion dollars stimulus for the next 3 years contribute about the same growth. And who knows what happened in the next 3 years ! So yes China can still grow irrespective of what happened in the west!

Hendrik_2000 said:

Let do the number again will you?. China's export to US and Europe is roughly 500 billion dollars but most of the export consists of daily life necessities and relatively cheap . So assuming it drop by a third which is unlikely, the export will drop by 164 billion out of 4.4 Trillion dollars economy . That will worked out roughly about 3.5 to 3.8% reduction in growth. The 500 billion dollars stimulus for the next 3 years contribute about the same growth. And who knows what happened in the next 3 years ! So yes China can still grow irrespective of what happened in the west!

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Not all that stimulus money is funded by the Central Govt. I think from memory about 1/3rd is from central, the rest is up to the regions to raise themselves.

I think it could drop by more than a third Consider this , when oil was at $140 dollars, a survey by Der Spiegel and Businessweek of CEO's, in the last year, concluded that having things manufactured in China was less attractive, with less savings to be made.Be that as it may and oil at $70 and possibly climbing and high unemployment at home it gives reason to start manufacturing at home again, therefore those large trade surpluses may never return..

I also remember reading in the same magazines the number of Chinese that have the spending power to purchase the type of products that it exports to the West, numbering about 60million. Even if we were to double that amount, it is still less by several times when compared to its Western Markets.

China may well have 2 trillion dollars reserve, but it also has a lot of social problems it needs to address.As a example China has its own ageing population, recent studies by the French demographic research bureau suggest Chinas ageing population is doubling every 25yrs, one of the fastest in the world. resulting in a problem much greater than that faced by America and other Western countries. On the one hand it wants is own people to consume more, and yet these same people need to save for retirement. A very tricky predicament.

It doest matter how large your economy is, its making sure you are on the right side of the ledger.

Not all that stimulus money is funded by the Central Govt. I think from memory about 1/3rd is from central, the rest is up to the regions to raise themselves.

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The bank provide the rest of stimulus package in the form of loan because goverment still own the majority of big bank .So when they tell them to jump the hoop they have no choice.

bladerunner said:

Not all that stimulus money is funded by the Central Govt. I think from memory about 1/3rd is from central, the rest is up to the regions to raise themselves.

I think it could drop by more than a third Consider this , when oil was at $140 dollars, a survey by Der Spiegel and Businessweek of CEO's, in the last year, concluded that having things manufactured in China was less attractive, with less savings to be made.Be that as it may and oil at $70 and possibly climbing and high unemployment at home it gives reason to start manufacturing at home again, therefore those large trade surpluses may never return..

I also remember reading in the same magazines the number of Chinese that have the spending power to purchase the type of products that it exports to the West, numbering about 60million. Even if we were to double that amount, it is still less by several times when compared to its Western Markets.

China may well have 2 trillion dollars reserve, but it also has a lot of social problems it needs to address.As a example China has its own ageing population, recent studies by the French demographic research bureau suggest Chinas ageing population is doubling every 25yrs, one of the fastest in the world. resulting in a problem much greater than that faced by America and other Western countries. On the one hand it wants is own people to consume more, and yet these same people need to save for retirement. A very tricky predicament.

It doest matter how large your economy is, its making sure you are on the right side of the ledger.

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just because China is not problem-free it says nothing about its capability of surpassing the US. problems is what motivate a nation to grow, a problem-free society would have no motivation for improvement

Interesting article in US news about shortage of Rare metal but also sad story about the myopic view of US industry . Beholden to wall street analyst, most of industry care more about short term profit then long term strategic planning. As usual China take advantage of this short term view
Again and again we see it in industry after industry. Nuclear Energy is so short of staffs. Now they have to bring people out of retirement
Once the technology gone it is hard to revive it



Make an interesting read Here is some passage

Both sides may be missing a key element. Economists generally agree that innovation is a major driver of economic growth. Innovation, however, does not occur in isolation. It is not the product of one company's efforts or of a single lab's work. It is the result of a whole cluster of things, including raw material suppliers, research labs, and manufacturing firms, working together. Remove one of these links, and the innovation chain weakens or breaks.

In the case of American energy technologies, the rare-earth component has been absent for a while. According to a paper published by Brian Fifarek of Carnegie Mellon University last year, its absence has left a mark. As domestic resources have vanished, he found, the number of successful patent applications filed by American companies for technologies using rare earths has declined precipitously since the early 1990s.

There is also anecdotal evidence to suggest that research and development activity, the lifeblood of innovation, has followed resources overseas. In 1999, Magnequench opened a research facility in North Carolina. In 2004, the company, citing access to resources, moved it to Singapore. Another rare-earth facility, in Ames, Iowa, closed in 2002.
Understandably, it has taken some countries and companies a while to make connections between innovation and resources. Mainly, someone in power has to look pretty far down the supply chain, through several layers of middlemen, to spot a problem. In some cases, they haven't or say they don't see problems. "I don't think about it that much," says Siemens CEO Peter Loscher.

There is first the challenge of reopening a mine; that in itself is difficult enough, requiring money and an appetite for risk. In the business world, mining investments are considered among the riskiest of deals. The full challenge, rebuilding a supply chain, is much greater. Metals have to be purified, refined, and assembled into components. These steps require money, technology, and expertise. In the United States, according to government estimates, there are only three facilities that refine rare earths. Most of the engineers who understand the processes are either retired or dead.