at this point i think the public have already made up their mind with regards to the protests. if someone is still okay with the violence and vandalism (i think they are in the minority), there is probably not much the protesters could do that would dissuade that support. i would also not assign to much rationality to what the protesters do, perhaps it is wise to not rock the boat before the election, and perhaps some of the protesters do believe that, but as a group they are not able to coordinate that.
Hong-Kong Protests
- Thread starter Pika
- Start date
manqiangrexue
Brigadier
We have seen this before in Donald Trump supporters. He will have their vote no matter what he does. He can talk about dating his daughter, grabbing women's vaginas, make up fake weather reports, alienate America's allies, destroy America's trade ties, put farmers on welfare, plunge the economy into imminent recession, be caught in multiple impeachable corruption scandals, or just go on public television spewing all manner of racist, stupid, ignorant things, but he will not lose is voter base for his vileness or incompetence as long as he represents an aggressive and unapologetic white man.
This loss of rationalism is commonly caused by desperation. People lose their morals and resort to primal instinct when they feel that they are losing their battle and cannot rationalize any way to turn the tides. It is the tactical equivalent of panicking. When it comes to Trump, his voters feel that America is losing its power in the world and the white man is losing is control over the USA and they can't reverse it, so that desperate instinct tells them to follow the aggressive white alpha male image that they want the United States to have in the world, even if it will only hasten America's decline. In the Hong Kong situation, Western nations are seeing China's miraculous success over their economic models and desperate to show that their capitalism and democracy are superior. Since this is unsupported by facts, their desperation drives them to cling to any allies they can find, even if those allies are incompetent and have broken every other moral code. So now, they find themselves bending over backwards to try to justify the indefensible acts of the rioters because they are willing allies and the desperate are of the mentality that they cannot afford to lose any allies no matter how terrible. It is reflected in real life where people going through low points of their lives are likely to enter into bad relationships with questionable people who their morals would have steered them clear of had they been in a mentally healthy state. I think if China were much weaker and of no threat to anyone, the West would have condemned the violence because they would be confident enough in their position of superiority over China that they would reject alliances, media or other, with people who are clearly terrorists.
In summary, it's all good. If the Western nations aren't resorting to dirty tactics out of desperation, then China doesn't have them on the run.
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Jura The idiot
General
China condemns U.S. House approval of bill on Hong Kong
Xinhua| 2019-10-16 10:44:45
basically a summary of what's happened while I slept;
related Glob. Times story from right before the vote:
US moves to lend support as demonstrations lose steam
the US Senate will be next
Xinhua| 2019-10-16 10:44:45
basically a summary of what's happened while I slept;
related Glob. Times story from right before the vote:
US moves to lend support as demonstrations lose steam
the US Senate will be next
Jura The idiot
General
Oct 7, 2019
Hong Kong taxi driver beaten by mob denies he was paid to ram car into crowd of protesters
follow the link if interested
and Saturday at 4:26 PM
related is
Hong Kong taxi driver beaten by mob denies he was paid to ram car into crowd of protesters
- Henry Cheng says he cannot remember how vehicle lost control because he was under attack, but insists he has ‘clear conscience’
- Cheng says he doesn’t hate those who battered him in notorious Sham Shui Po incident that left two seriously injured
follow the link if interested
1C2S was always meant to favour China, no matter which of your scenarios came to pass, of course DXP knew this.
However, the argument about "needing" HK to fail is not proven by your scenarios. After all, Deng modeled Shenzhen SEZ after HK economically. He knew HK had an effective model to build up the economy. HK's issues are not directly related to the governance model, but the entire city's failure to adapt to the changing winds.
I hate to quote myself, but I think it is very relevant to your points. I believe you mentioned it yourself in the past, the need for technical expertise. That's a reason why HK is falling behind, too embroiled in politics. If you were HK'er, and don't care about politics, why would you stay? There are so many opportunities in mainland China.
Too much time in HK Is wasted debating these issues. The anti-mainland groups put up far too much resistance to any projects that bring HK and mainland closer together. Look at the HSR line from HK to GD. It took almost 10 years for only 26km. Protest after protest, dumb issues like mainland officers doing customs clearance on HK side, meanwhile mainland built the line all the way from SZ to Xiamen.
Like you said, there is a need to think strategically and HK did not. You can argue that this is a failure of democracy, but if people were not so poisoned, perhaps the story would be different.
People's mind were poisoned the moment they chose to be subjects of the colonialists and chose to go under the hammer of Proselytization that is a characteristic of Colonial pursuits. There is nothing the CCP can do that will change their minds. Change has to come from within... From the grassroots. The stakeholders of the city must realize a love for the nation. That's what matters. It all depends upon the working class. Religion isn't an impediment for patriotism. But it can be made so by the connivance of vested interests.
As long as the Renminbi isn't freely convertible
... There exists the strength of HKD. And HKD contributes to the separatism and elitism of the HK people.
Equation
Lieutenant General
Interesting read but yet, this proves the motives of some Westerners when it comes to China.
What America Didn’t Anticipate About China
For too long, policy makers ignored the possibility that China could transform the U.S., rather than the other way around.
From the late 19th century up to World War II, Americans were seized with the idea of transforming China into a Christian, capitalist America on the other side of the Pacific Ocean.
The word “plastic” pops up again and again in American statements about China from that era. China is “plastic” in the hands of “strong and capable Westerners,” announced President Woodrow Wilson in 1914. “China has become plastic after centuries of rigid conventionalism,”declared Selskar M. Gunn, a vice president of the Rockefeller Foundation, in May 1933.
But from the beginning, Americans were also afraid that China — or the Chinese — would change them, too. In 1870, following the Civil War, Congress limited naturalization to whites and blacks. Later, the United States tried to inoculate itself against the influence of the Chinese by banning many of them from America’s shores. Starting with the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882, the U.S. Congress passed a series of racist immigration laws which would not be significantly modified until World War II, when China was an ally in America’s fight against Japan. It looked bad for the US to deny Chinese the right to travel in America while Chinese under American command were dying on Asian battlefields.
........
In April 1868, a delegation of Chinese officials visited the United States. Among them was a Manchu Mandarin named Zhigang who authored one of the first Chinese travelogues describing a visit to the West. Zhigang wrote reams on American shipbuilding, steel mills, microscopes, and printing presses. Zhigang also had an insight about the resilience of American values that his successors in Beijing understand today. In America, he noted, “the love of God is less real than the love of profit.” Or as the straight-shooting Jason Whitlock said on the Fox Sports show Speak for Yourself the other day, “Quit faking the funk … When China tells you to shut the hell up, everybody shuts the hell up. Everybody loses their courage when there’s money on the line.”
What America Didn’t Anticipate About China
For too long, policy makers ignored the possibility that China could transform the U.S., rather than the other way around.
From the late 19th century up to World War II, Americans were seized with the idea of transforming China into a Christian, capitalist America on the other side of the Pacific Ocean.
The word “plastic” pops up again and again in American statements about China from that era. China is “plastic” in the hands of “strong and capable Westerners,” announced President Woodrow Wilson in 1914. “China has become plastic after centuries of rigid conventionalism,”declared Selskar M. Gunn, a vice president of the Rockefeller Foundation, in May 1933.
But from the beginning, Americans were also afraid that China — or the Chinese — would change them, too. In 1870, following the Civil War, Congress limited naturalization to whites and blacks. Later, the United States tried to inoculate itself against the influence of the Chinese by banning many of them from America’s shores. Starting with the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882, the U.S. Congress passed a series of racist immigration laws which would not be significantly modified until World War II, when China was an ally in America’s fight against Japan. It looked bad for the US to deny Chinese the right to travel in America while Chinese under American command were dying on Asian battlefields.
........
In April 1868, a delegation of Chinese officials visited the United States. Among them was a Manchu Mandarin named Zhigang who authored one of the first Chinese travelogues describing a visit to the West. Zhigang wrote reams on American shipbuilding, steel mills, microscopes, and printing presses. Zhigang also had an insight about the resilience of American values that his successors in Beijing understand today. In America, he noted, “the love of God is less real than the love of profit.” Or as the straight-shooting Jason Whitlock said on the Fox Sports show Speak for Yourself the other day, “Quit faking the funk … When China tells you to shut the hell up, everybody shuts the hell up. Everybody loses their courage when there’s money on the line.”
manqiangrexue
Brigadier
No they didn't. If they did, they would have at least been well-meaning. They wanted to transform China into a big Christian capitalist Japan that endlessly idolizes an American master and can be swayed and coerced into sacrificing its own interests to bolster America's. Having such a controllable yet powerful ally, or henchman, would cement America as the world's hegemon for any foreseeable future.
