Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

airsuperiority said:

I'm glad you asked this. I know you guys all know I haven't said much about this, and even I know too. In fact, a friend is accusing me of being bias for not mentioning it(which I admit I do, because first of all I know there's no way I ain't taking a side in this situation), but I told her the reason is because the thinking for anti-OC is very straightfoward.

Anyways, to answer your question. First of all, there's no way no pro-OC people don't know this disrupt business. We all know. Whoever doesn't should not even be marching, that's what I think. It's like, the most primary common sense and argument, which is also why I never even bothered visiting this argument because it's very self-explanatory. The pro-OC people feel really bad about it, but I'm sure they all understand it's inevitable because the purpose of OC is civil disobedience and to disrupt the economy in order to get the government's attention. This is also the reason the first few days the protestors are very peaceful, orderly, restraining for most part, and cleaning up after themselves. Some business owners liked them. However, I feel the strangest movement is going to MK, which is quite unnecessary.

I really doubt the students don't know what they're doing, otherwise they should be gone as soon as the pepper sprays showed up and tear gas. Maybe you can say it's conformity, but they aren't forced, and there are students who leave and return on their own as well as non-students, so I do public grievances towards HKSAR and dissatisfaction with the electoral system was the primary fuel for all this. And even then, the anti-OC people aren't actually endorsing CY neither. They still call him 689 no joke.

I'm not exactly sure if they're harming their parents, but all this started last week when parents, pro or against OC, permitted their students to walk out(because the parental teaching here is, if the kids have a strong feeling about sth and feel it's their right and important to step out and make a stand, then they should be granted this chance. so they're teaching citizenship somewhat). the escalation came when the pepper spray happened, which led people of both OC and against OC to show up because they are angry with police's use of unnecessary force against students who put up their hands) Since then you have people of all ages, and I don't think I need to cover base again.

I think the original strategy from the student leaders was probably to negotiate and end things. These are my speculations though, but I do have grounds in believing that. The very fact dialogue began was a very good step, and it was heading in the right direction and probably would've worked things out, if the violence initiated by the thugs(I'm referring to the thugs and not the anti-OC) didn't break out, which of course led to the destruction of the negotiation.

I'm just hearing my dad mentioning outside now, that the student leaders might be opening dialogue again, and clarified this isn't a revolution. Honestly whoever thinks this is a real revolution is dumb. Unless HK is its own sovereignty state(which it isn't), this ain't no revolution. So yea, whoever used this word is making it sound fancy somewhat, but also misleading. I won't be surprised there are misled people out there, which is why I try my best to explain things to those people. Essentially I have talked about this for so many times and so much, I'm getting sick and tired of it. I really just want the students to go home and be safe.

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When you are successful in disrupting the economy the house prices will fall which will be a boon to the remaning people in HK and a painful lesson for the real estate owners. As HK isn't as important to China as it was twenty years ago this might well be acceptable to Beijing.

ancestral said:

I don't think it's fair to say "I don't think you understand them". It's a good way to end the discussion right here. By the same token, I don't think you understand the situation in Hong Kong because you're not even in Hong Kong.

I accept people being different, but it's (some of) the protesters and youths who cannot accept a POV different from them. In Hong Kong, the reality is if you're not pro-democracy, you'll be witch-hunted and picked on by the vast amount of pro-democracy fanatics. They are so paranoid about the CPC they themselves are becoming the very "evil" they hate.

Take a look at this screen. One of my friends who expressed opposition opinions on FB got "uprooted" and have his identity exposed to the public. I know, these people are the minority, but I've never seen anything like this from the anti-OC camp, who are comparatively much much more accepting of different opinions.

PS. how do I post an image properly?

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Have you heard of Anonymous? They are untraceable, invisible group of cyber hackers/vigilantes and they specialize themselves in using cyber disruptions or cyber methods to engage in campaigns against individuals, organizations, etc. They hacked the US DOD often, recently engaged in all-out cyberwar against Islamic State, protected a female activist from revenge porn retaliation, and they started attacking HKSAR government websites tonight.

Also, you must understand I started off as anti-OC before 9/28. I wasn't in anyone's camp in particular, and I only endorsed pan-democrat's values but not their way of doing things, and I essentially don't abide by anyone in HKSAR or LegCo. Even then, I wasn't pro-OC until they started the tear-gas. It's also true that I'm not in HK, but just to let you know, when the first tear gas was deployed, me, along with many others around the world, couldn't sleep. I didn't sleep that night, and barely get enough sleep these several nights as I'd be following what's happening from what my friends are reporting back to me as well as social media uploads and photos. I probably would've been back in HK if I had the money.

Also, just like yourself, I can accept people being different. I don't have a problem with anti-OC. I just have problems with the Triads who showed up to beat the students and those people only know to condemn the students but stand by and let the violent carry itself out rather than prevent it. Honestly the city is so divided now, that it seemed like as long as you're not wearing the same colored ribbon, you deserve to be left to die. And while you can say the witch-hunt that's happening to anti-OC, aren't there more students being smashed just for sitting there. As an adult, do you feel such violence is acceptable?

I can also tell you, my Facebook wall is bombarded with feeds of police preferential treatment(supported by videos and articles and images) and attacks from the anti-OC. By the same logic, shouldn't I be wishing hell to all anti-OC people? However never had I ever generalized all anti-OC as bad. All the members here, as well as my previous posts, speak for me. The whole time I reiterated anger at the thugs and the police and the HKSAR, and not the anti-OC people. I even said I believed most of those who carried out attacks are the thugs and refused to believe normal public folks will do such a thing. I honestly don't care what ribbon you wear, but if you love HK, it's time for you to go out there and protect everyone you can. Go out and build bridges, not shut ears. This city is dying and it needs our help. Please do something that I can't at this moment because I'm not there. If you really believe in it, or want good for the city, and not just for your own self interests, please do the right thing. If OC's slogan is OCLP, why can't you guys create AOCLP? Anti-Occupy Central with Love and Peace?

Just an update for you guys. It looks like OC is coming to an end by tomorrow at the earliest. Almost all OC leaderships are calling for the students to go home. There are only a handful of them left in Admiralty as of right now. An hour ago, in MK I'm still seeing crowds but you and I both know Occupy MK is doomed to fail, and I think the majority of them are anti-OC.

Considering that today is a holiday, hopefully as school resumes tomorrow there will be even less people in Admiralty. OC has its moments but I think it's hard to make a comeback. If an election is to be held tomorrow I'm sure the Pan-dem camp would suffer a humiliating loss. People feel being lied to, betrayed and annoyed for the following reasons:

1. They cowardly hid behind the crowd while deferring leadership to Student Union, Scholarism and the OC 3. They have no roadmap, no better proposal to 2017, and no plan whatsoever in the entire OC movement. How can we trust they can provide the leadership comes universal suffrage?

2. They scandalized the ordinary citizens who are anti-OC.

3. Some people now realize they are in league with the US to cause trouble and instigate a color revolution.

airsuperiority said:

You don't realize your question is stupid do you? How or why will I even stand "in the way of evolution".

I don't know if you're genuinely trying to discuss this topic with me or trying to nitpick for things, but some of your questions are meaningless no offense. My response which you replied to was based off what I had learned in Intergroup Relations in Social Psychology. For the strange questions you're throwing at me, I'm already giving you a proper answer for that already. If you really have something you want to ask, please think first as to what is it you're really trying to ask. Don't ask for the sake of it.

Honestly why don't you think about it, how do I stand even in the way of the so-called "evolution".

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If "Intergroup Relations in Social Psychology" gets in the way of understanding someone perhaps it was not a very useful course.

airsuperiority said:

Have you heard of Anonymous? They are untraceable, invisible group of cyber hackers/vigilantes and they specialize themselves in using cyber disruptions or cyber methods to engage in campaigns against individuals, organizations, etc. They hacked the US DOD often, recently engaged in all-out cyberwar against Islamic State, protected a female activist from revenge porn retaliation, and they started attacking HKSAR government websites tonight.

Also, you must understand I started off as anti-OC before 9/28. I wasn't in anyone's camp in particular, and I only endorsed pan-democrat's values but not their way of doing things, and I essentially don't abide by anyone in HKSAR or LegCo. Even then, I wasn't pro-OC until they started the tear-gas. It's also true that I'm not in HK, but just to let you know, when the first tear gas was deployed, me, along with many others around the world, couldn't sleep. I didn't sleep that night, and barely get enough sleep these several nights as I'd be following what's happening from what my friends are reporting back to me as well as social media uploads and photos. I probably would've been back in HK if I had the money.

Also, just like yourself, I can accept people being different. I don't have a problem with anti-OC. I just have problems with the Triads who showed up to beat the students and those people only know to condemn the students but stand by and let the violent carry itself out rather than prevent it. Honestly the city is so divided now, that it seemed like as long as you're not wearing the same colored ribbon, you deserve to be left to die. And while you can say the witch-hunt that's happening to anti-OC, aren't there more students being smashed just for sitting there. As an adult, do you feel such violence is acceptable?

I can also tell you, my Facebook wall is bombarded with feeds of police preferential treatment(supported by videos and articles and images) and attacks from the anti-OC. By the same logic, shouldn't I be wishing hell to all anti-OC people? However never had I ever generalized all anti-OC as bad. All the members here, as well as my previous posts, speak for me. The whole time I reiterated anger at the thugs and the police and the HKSAR, and not the anti-OC people. I even said I believed most of those who carried out attacks are the thugs and refused to believe normal public folks will do such a thing. I honestly don't care what ribbon you wear, but if you love HK, it's time for you to go out there and protect everyone you can. Go out and build bridges, not shut ears. This city is dying and it needs our help. Please do something that I can't at this moment because I'm not there. If you really believe in it, or want good for the city, and not just for your own self interests, please do the right thing. If OC's slogan is OCLP, why can't you guys create AOCLP? Anti-Occupy Central with Love and Peace?

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No, they are not the Anonymous. They are the folks from hkGolden.com, Hong Kong's equivalence of 4chan.org. Anyone can hijack the name "Anonymous" and make threats. They are targeting anti-OC voices and trying to shut out opposite opinions that harm their cause.

The students shouldn't sit in the middle of the streets anyway. I think it's the police's duty to disperse them, whether or not they are students. I also think it's shameless to encourage clueless students to the streets in order to take advantage of public sympathy towards our youth. The police should enforce the laws, but so far I've seen nothing but biases towards the OC people. Anti-OCs are arrested but the OC guys who also used violence are allowed to break the laws and block the traffic?? it's unfair.

Equation said:

Than OC are responsible for the disruption of the people that depends on those businesses as well. Why couldn't OC talk to those business people first before taking matters into their own hands and protest it without consent? they could work out a time table or a deal where the protesters could come out after business hours and such, but they did not. That's is a rather piss poor planning and judgement by the student leaders on their part. That's why more and more people are becoming discontent with OC selfish behaviors. Trying to "send a message" to the government through unpopular means and disruptive actions does not make it right.

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I never denied OC has no responsibility. I even mentioned couple times, I don't know why they're in MK. Your first question is a good one. I don't know the answer to that, but yea I think that could've helped with the situation. However, I also have a feeling some people think it's gonna be over soon, or they have less patience than they think. I'm not on the ground myself neither so I can't actually survey and study the attitudes of the folks there. The pace of the hostility was very quick though, which is something I wish I can be there to find out because this is a very important manner. Could it be thug-instigated too? Or purely from frustrations? Or both? These are questions that flow in my mind as I watch the unravelling of the hostilities.
Also, do believe me I am still very cautious of the student leader. He had demonstrated himself to had been better leader than before from the past 2 years(he would spin things or throw middle finger at the police and I had a very bad impression of this guy), but I'm still reserved about his ability, and again I also don't know why they went to MK. It's unnecessary as I see it. Finally, I can understand the withdrawal from negotiations is due to the violence, but I do wonder if he had fallen into a trap too.

Also again I do not advocate what they are doing is ever right. I am just explaining why they do it. This is also why I had been reiterating countless times I wish everything is over soon. Both sides are HK people, and one side are students. I want to see everyone get home safe, not turn into a hell hole that HK is right now. Finally, according to what I know, the protesting students who are on the ground had been courteous and mannerful and cleaning up and exercising their restraint in the beginning few days, so I believe they are aware of the disruptions and are trying to minimize the inconveniences. Regardless, it's for certain they can't hold that up for long, so I hope everything will be ok soon. And no more violence.

Brumby said:

Your premise is Britain as a colonial power cannot reasonably introduce a democratic process into a departing colonial outpost. You have to demonstrate why such a behaviour is mutually exclusive or at least is an unreasonable act. I have already outlined the reason. You have to undercut that reasoning at the minimum. Whether Britain care or not does not preclude other reasons outside of care.

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GB was confronted by the Mau Mau movement in its colony Kenya in the '50's. Recent publications have shown that its reaction were barbarous and when it conceded that Kenya couldn't remain a colony it kept many leaders of the Mau Mau in prison until it had installed a compliant government which even now is not really democratic. This according to BBC Radio 4.
There is a serious question if GB was ever interested in promoting democracy when it left a colony.

It isn't just in MK but scuffles between OC protesters and other people are breaking out throughout the city. They just can't get the message that the people don't want them there.

I was initially ambivalent towards these protests. But after seeing the level of selfishness and self righteousness of these protesters I have changed my mind. If you call people who are just trying to make a living and feed their families thugs and mobs or stooges then you are either ignorant of the harm that you are causing others or you are just contemptuous towards those that have less education and means than you.

ancestral said:

No, they are not the Anonymous. They are the folks from hkGolden.com, Hong Kong's equivalence of 4chan.org. Anyone can hijack the name "Anonymous" and make threats. They are targeting anti-OC voices and trying to shut out opposite opinions that harm their cause.

The students shouldn't sit in the middle of the streets anyway. I think it's the police's duty to disperse them, whether or not they are students. I also think it's shameless to encourage clueless students to the streets in order to take advantage of public sympathy towards our youth. The police should enforce the laws, but so far I've seen nothing but biases towards the OC people. Anti-OCs are arrested but the OC guys who also used violence are allowed to break the laws and block the traffic?? it's unfair.

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I saw somewhere on Facebook that they're Asia Anonymous who posted the updates of their head trophies.However, I don't discount the possibility of HKGOLDEN because the folks there are famous for doing that sh!t and we all know it. That's also why I never really go there other than see a post-concert review once. They're a bunch of kids.

By the way, I think you probably know that originally it was just a sit-in right? Things changed when they climbed over the fence into the Civic Square. One question is why the HKSAR gov't fenced it up just a few days prior to the announcement of the NPC? It's public space and so who's holding them accountable for it? If I also recall correctly, they had already planned in advance and notified the police they wanted to use the space prior, so the decline was last minute and they had plans originally to enter if the deadline has passed. This is what I "think" I remember. Anyways, do I think they're right to climb? Normally speaking, no. However in the eyes of those activists, the reasoning was probably cynic and sees the gestures of such gates as suppressing them from assembly in the original designated spot. Furthermore, they had requested CY to come out, but funny enough it took several days of serious protests, tear-gas, hundreds of thousands in the streets, etc, before he actually come out yesterday. And by 9/29, when the OC has begun, the police condoned off Timar from access for the protest. If they had not done so, the protestors would have been in there and not in the streets. And I think you're also aware that the tear-gas caused the surge of protestors to rise. Furthermore, let's not forget the negotiations were taking place last night when the attacks by Triads began. It was then when the negotiation process turned back. Sure we can say that the OC shouldn't be in the streets, but did anyone think about how or why they're in the streets the first place? I'm telling you all these because I also think as critical thinkers or if you love HK, we all should have these questions. WTF is this government doing for us? How responsible are they towards us? How accountable can we hold them? These are questions we should also be asking, because for us to play the blame game solely on the other side will be us being distracted from the more serious and pressing issue of why HKSAR is being like this? Hostility towards one another is pointless. Although I know what I'm saying is pointless as it's already happened, I do hope you take a moment and think what I've said. Instead of so-called "attempting to hold each other accountable" when neither can really do anything, shouldn't we direct this anger into question and question how the F the situation become as it is now?

Also, let's not forget these students are still someone's kids. If you have your own kid how will you treat them? Maybe it's a far-fetched question, but I don't think these students, even if they are protestors, should be brutally roughed down like this. Be a reasonable and rational HKer and think about it. Use your own judgement.
You've also said you've watched police being lenient towards the OC protestors, but all my sources, videos, reports are telling me the police are letting away attackers who claimed to be anti-OC, and there are multiple sources already from so many different people. So, in case you think the anti-OC is getting the short end of the stick, I do want to let you know, someone's son, wearing his school uniform, is being taken to hospital with a bloodied mouth.

Franklin said:

It isn't just in MK but scuffles between OC protesters and other people are breaking out throughout the city. They just can't get the message that the people don't want them there.

I was initially ambivalent towards these protests. But after seeing the level of selfishness and self righteousness of these protesters I have changed my mind. If you call people who are just trying to make a living and feed their families thugs and mobs or stooges then you are either ignorant of the harm that you are causing others or you are just contemptuous towards those that have less education and means than you.

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I told you I'm referring to the Triads who are amongst them, right? They're the thugs I'm referring to.