H-20 bomber (with H-X, JH-XX)

Blitzo

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well the first part with the question is from me !

Who were you asking the question to?

If you were asking the Zhao Dashuai twitter account, he is not exactly worthwhile getting information from as his PLA watching acumen isn't that great....


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More broadly, I'm a little confused why everyone is getting so roused up by these statements by Yankee.
Namely, what is the context of these statements? Did he actually suggest or state that this project is actively being worked on now, or is he just describing it notionally.

Also, what are the actual statements by Yankee himself limited to? I don't disagree with Horobeyo's conclusions, but it is important we have proper attribution as to who actually said what.
 

Deino

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Who were you asking the question to?

If you were asking the Zhao Dashuai twitter account, he is not exactly worthwhile getting information from as his PLA watching acumen isn't that great....


=======


More broadly, I'm a little confused why everyone is getting so roused up by these statements by Yankee.
Namely, what is the context of these statements? Did he actually suggest or state that this project is actively being worked on now, or is he just describing it notionally.

Also, what are the actual statements by Yankee himself limited to? I don't disagree with Horobeyo's conclusions, but it is important we have proper attribution as to who actually said what.

indeed I was chatting with Zhao Dashuai on Twitter since he made a claim I did not believe … and during the discussion I asked about the H-20 or better his opinion on it.

unfortunately more I don’t know
 

tphuang

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Who were you asking the question to?

If you were asking the Zhao Dashuai twitter account, he is not exactly worthwhile getting information from as his PLA watching acumen isn't that great....


=======


More broadly, I'm a little confused why everyone is getting so roused up by these statements by Yankee.
Namely, what is the context of these statements? Did he actually suggest or state that this project is actively being worked on now, or is he just describing it notionally.

Also, what are the actual statements by Yankee himself limited to? I don't disagree with Horobeyo's conclusions, but it is important we have proper attribution as to who actually said what.
I watched a clip where Yankee was talking and he makes no mention of this JH. And the video matches the photo in that tweet.
 

Lethe

Captain
If that JH-XX by Shenyang is a true fighter-bomber instead of a pure 6th-gen fighter, I'm thinking of a max takeoff weight of ~60+ tons for the JH-XX. This is judging by how the large-size, heavy-weight 5th-gen fighters of today are already edging closer to 40 tons of max takeoff weight, hence I do believe that the max takeoff weight of 6th-gen fighters should be well into the 40-ton range, or even approaching/crossing the 50-ton mark.

One reason for a lighter bomber is if it were adapted from an existing platform, such as FB-111A from F-111, Su-34 from Su-27, notional FB-22 from F-22. But if JH-XX were to be a "bomber-fied J-20" then one would expect CAC would be handling the project.
 
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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
If that JH-XX by Shenyang is a true fighter-bomber instead of a pure 6th-gen fighter, I'm thinking of a max takeoff weight of ~60+ tons for the JH-XX. This is judging by how the large-size, heavy-weight 5th-gen fighters of today are already edging closer to 40 tons of max takeoff weight, hence I do believe that the max takeoff weight of 6th-gen fighters should be well into the 40-ton range, or even approaching/crossing the 50-ton mark.
if there was a fighter-bomber sized JH-XX it would need to be long enough to accommodate a ASM and long range LACMs.

taking a 3000 km class LACM as an example, the Kh-55 is 7.62 m long, 0.53 m OD. This is pretty typical; a Tomahawk is about the same size.

The PL-15 is 4 m long, 0.2 m OD, and the J-20 weapons bay can accommodate 4x of them. Let's say that the weapons bay is 1m across.

To accommodate Kh-55 class missiles, you'd need to stretch a J-20 class fighter's weapons bay by +3.6 m minimum. The stretching will require rebalancing of the plane. But to be really safe, and to accommodate a 2nd pilot in the seat as the weapons officer, you'd probably want to stretch the plane by +4 m.

To avoid having to widen the plane to carry more than 1x missile (which wouldn't be worth it), you'd need to make the bays deeper and have a rotary launcher. The rotary launcher is a proven solution.

1 way to accommodate a large enough rotary launcher is to delete the side bays and add a 4x rotary launcher of ~1.2 m OD, dropping 1 missile at a time in rapid succession. The J-20 fuselage is at least 2 m wide to accommodate 2x Al-31 sized engines, so this is feasible.

At empty weight of 17k kg and 20 m length, its about ~1000 kg per m. Stretching it by 4 m is +4000 kg roughly; even though it'll be an empty weapons bay, it'll still require some fuel, extra fuselage structural support and the rotary launcher itself at the minimum.

So we're looking at something like 24 m long, 22000 kg empty weight, carrying 4x 2200 kg payload for Kh-55 class missiles, minimum. That's about Mig-31 and F-111 size, which is realistic.

Range: This is where a fighter bomber gets tricky. Mig-31 has 0.8 M, high altitude combat radius of 1450 km while carrying 2000 kg of munitions (4x R-33) and 16000 kg of fuel.

F-111 has similar ferry range to the Mig-31, so it probably has a similar combat radius too.

That's too short for the Pacific.

So you'll need to stretch the plane even more to accommodate more fuel. I'm not an aerospace engineer, but I can see that at this point you're looking at major changes like increasing the length even more, increasing wing area, etc.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
One reason for a lighter bomber is if it were adapted from an existing platform, such as FB-111A from F-111, Su-34 from Su-27, notional FB-22 from F-22. But if JH-XX were to be a "bomber-fied J-20" then one would expect CAC would be handling the project.
I did not claim that the JH-XX is a "bomber-fied" variant of the J-20. This is similar to how the JH-7/A is not a "bomber-fied" variant of the J-8II, for instance.

In the meantime, the maximum takeoff weights of the above listed fighters and fighter-bombers, for reference:
1. F-111 = 45.3 tons
2. FB-111A = 54.1 tons
3. Su-27 = 30.5 tons
(Su-30 & Su-35 = 34.5 tons)
4. Su-34 = 45.1 tons
5. F-22 = 38.0 tons
6. FB-22 = 54.4 tons
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
if there was a fighter-bomber sized JH-XX it would need to be long enough to accommodate a ASM and long range LACMs.

taking a 3000 km class LACM as an example, the Kh-55 is 7.62 m long, 0.53 m OD. This is pretty typical; a Tomahawk is about the same size.

The PL-15 is 4 m long, 0.2 m OD, and the J-20 weapons bay can accommodate 4x of them. Let's say that the weapons bay is 1m across.

To accommodate Kh-55 class missiles, you'd need to stretch a J-20 class fighter's weapons bay by +3.6 m minimum. The stretching will require rebalancing of the plane. But to be really safe, and to accommodate a 2nd pilot in the seat as the weapons officer, you'd probably want to stretch the plane by +4 m.

To avoid having to widen the plane to carry more than 1x missile (which wouldn't be worth it), you'd need to make the bays deeper and have a rotary launcher. The rotary launcher is a proven solution.

1 way to accommodate a large enough rotary launcher is to delete the side bays and add a 4x rotary launcher of ~1.2 m OD, dropping 1 missile at a time in rapid succession. The J-20 fuselage is at least 2 m wide to accommodate 2x Al-31 sized engines, so this is feasible.

At empty weight of 17k kg and 20 m length, its about ~1000 kg per m. Stretching it by 4 m is +4000 kg roughly; even though it'll be an empty weapons bay, it'll still require some fuel, extra fuselage structural support and the rotary launcher itself at the minimum.

So we're looking at something like 24 m long, 22000 kg empty weight, carrying 4x 2200 kg payload for Kh-55 class missiles, minimum. That's about Mig-31 and F-111 size, which is realistic.

Range: This is where a fighter bomber gets tricky. Mig-31 has 0.8 M, high altitude combat radius of 1450 km while carrying 2000 kg of munitions (4x R-33) and 16000 kg of fuel.

F-111 has similar ferry range to the Mig-31, so it probably has a similar combat radius too.

That's too short for the Pacific.

So you'll need to stretch the plane even more to accommodate more fuel. I'm not an aerospace engineer, but I can see that at this point you're looking at major changes like increasing the length even more, increasing wing area, etc.
You forgot the range gains they can get out of the engine. For the same thrust a higher bypass WS-15 ought to be more efficient than what the F-111 and Mig-31 were flying with.

(But realistically I assume a plane in the 60 ton range)

EDIT: The might also be able to squeeze out a higher fuel fraction with more modern materials and manufacturing techniques in the fuselage structure.
 

Blitzo

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One reason for a lighter bomber is if it were adapted from an existing platform, such as FB-111A from F-111, Su-34 from Su-27, notional FB-22 from F-22. But if JH-XX were to be a "bomber-fied J-20" then one would expect CAC would be handling the project.

if there was a fighter-bomber sized JH-XX it would need to be long enough to accommodate a ASM and long range LACMs.

taking a 3000 km class LACM as an example, the Kh-55 is 7.62 m long, 0.53 m OD. This is pretty typical; a Tomahawk is about the same size.

The PL-15 is 4 m long, 0.2 m OD, and the J-20 weapons bay can accommodate 4x of them. Let's say that the weapons bay is 1m across.

To accommodate Kh-55 class missiles, you'd need to stretch a J-20 class fighter's weapons bay by +3.6 m minimum. The stretching will require rebalancing of the plane. But to be really safe, and to accommodate a 2nd pilot in the seat as the weapons officer, you'd probably want to stretch the plane by +4 m.

To avoid having to widen the plane to carry more than 1x missile (which wouldn't be worth it), you'd need to make the bays deeper and have a rotary launcher. The rotary launcher is a proven solution.

1 way to accommodate a large enough rotary launcher is to delete the side bays and add a 4x rotary launcher of ~1.2 m OD, dropping 1 missile at a time in rapid succession. The J-20 fuselage is at least 2 m wide to accommodate 2x Al-31 sized engines, so this is feasible.

At empty weight of 17k kg and 20 m length, its about ~1000 kg per m. Stretching it by 4 m is +4000 kg roughly; even though it'll be an empty weapons bay, it'll still require some fuel, extra fuselage structural support and the rotary launcher itself at the minimum.

So we're looking at something like 24 m long, 22000 kg empty weight, carrying 4x 2200 kg payload for Kh-55 class missiles, minimum. That's about Mig-31 and F-111 size, which is realistic.

Range: This is where a fighter bomber gets tricky. Mig-31 has 0.8 M, high altitude combat radius of 1450 km while carrying 2000 kg of munitions (4x R-33) and 16000 kg of fuel.

F-111 has similar ferry range to the Mig-31, so it probably has a similar combat radius too.

That's too short for the Pacific.

So you'll need to stretch the plane even more to accommodate more fuel. I'm not an aerospace engineer, but I can see that at this point you're looking at major changes like increasing the length even more, increasing wing area, etc.




To both of the above, if this notional JH-XX is being actually developed, there are no indications or rumours that it would be based on J-20.

In fact, since the early 2010s when the idea of a JH-XX first emerged, including with that mystery model, it was always assumed to be a clean sheet design.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
To both of the above, if this notional JH-XX is being actually developed, there are no indications or rumours that it would be based on J-20.

In fact, since the early 2010s when the idea of a JH-XX first emerged, including with that mystery model, it was always assumed to be a clean sheet design.
this is just a thought exercise to see what is roughly possible in terms of dimensions, masses, etc. from known, proven designs.

You forgot the range gains they can get out of the engine. For the same thrust a higher bypass WS-15 ought to be more efficient than what the F-111 and Mig-31 were flying with.

(But realistically I assume a plane in the 60 ton range)

EDIT: The might also be able to squeeze out a higher fuel fraction with more modern materials and manufacturing techniques in the fuselage structure.

60 tons full or empty? My estimate is for a 47 ton fully loaded plane: 22000 kg empty, 16000 kg fuel, 9000 kg max payload. Which is basically a Mig-31.

If we're talking 60 tons full , then we're looking at something like ~28000 kg empty, ~20000 kg fuel, ~12000 kg max payload.

That's about 1/2 the size of a Tu-22M or B-1B both in weight ~25-30 tons empty and dimensions ~25-30 m long.

Curiously, I can't find any aircraft historically produced in this weight and dimension range. The closest is the FB-111H with a 25 m long fuselage and H-6 with a 34 m length. Is there a reason for that?
 
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