H-20 bomber (with H-X, JH-XX)

Blitzo

Blitzo

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Everyone is getting a bit too far ahead of themselves.
Let's take it down a few notches and reflect on what can actually be substantiated.

Yankee (if I understand that is indeed him), seems to allude to a project that is stealthy, can fly relatively fast, with a takeoff weight of tens of tons, with a range of over 10,000 Chinese miles (over 5000km), with a large payload bay.


That basically only leaves two proper options, either a 6th gen (or next gen, whatever) fighter platform, or a theater bomber/JH-XX type platform.

I think everyone is assuming that it is referring to a theater bomber/JH-XX platform, but we should keep our mind open that it may not be that, and could very well refer to a 6th gen/next gen fighter platform instead, and at this stage all of the discussion around the "specifications" of a "JH-XX" is only being done because of Horobeyo's own personal speculation that Yankee is referring to a theater bomber.


All of which is to say, I think it is important for all of us to actively register that as of right now, there is actually no solid indication that a "JH-XX" is suggested to be under active development, and thus the discussion being had about its potential "specifications" is for a project which may not even be under development.
 
Deino

Deino

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ashnole said:
So the PLAAF is looking at something along the lines of the cancelled (or black?) Northrop F/B-23 Rapid Theatre Attack.

The F/B-23 RTA was designed for a nominal main mission of 1750 nautical mile radius, entirely flown at Mach 1.6 at above 50000 feet with a 9000-pound weapons payload.
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Actually I would be very careful with such claims like „the PLAAF is looking at something“! So far we know there have been studies towards a project for such a bomber, but we don’t know if it ever was a true program, what’s its current status - aka if there is still such a program - and all these discussions on weight, range, weapons load and more are fishing in very muddy waters.
 
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dingyibvs

Senior Member
FairAndUnbiased said:
if there was a fighter-bomber sized JH-XX it would need to be long enough to accommodate a ASM and long range LACMs.

taking a 3000 km class LACM as an example, the Kh-55 is 7.62 m long, 0.53 m OD. This is pretty typical; a Tomahawk is about the same size.

The PL-15 is 4 m long, 0.2 m OD, and the J-20 weapons bay can accommodate 4x of them. Let's say that the weapons bay is 1m across.

To accommodate Kh-55 class missiles, you'd need to stretch a J-20 class fighter's weapons bay by +3.6 m minimum. The stretching will require rebalancing of the plane. But to be really safe, and to accommodate a 2nd pilot in the seat as the weapons officer, you'd probably want to stretch the plane by +4 m.

To avoid having to widen the plane to carry more than 1x missile (which wouldn't be worth it), you'd need to make the bays deeper and have a rotary launcher. The rotary launcher is a proven solution.

1 way to accommodate a large enough rotary launcher is to delete the side bays and add a 4x rotary launcher of ~1.2 m OD, dropping 1 missile at a time in rapid succession. The J-20 fuselage is at least 2 m wide to accommodate 2x Al-31 sized engines, so this is feasible.

At empty weight of 17k kg and 20 m length, its about ~1000 kg per m. Stretching it by 4 m is +4000 kg roughly; even though it'll be an empty weapons bay, it'll still require some fuel, extra fuselage structural support and the rotary launcher itself at the minimum.

So we're looking at something like 24 m long, 22000 kg empty weight, carrying 4x 2200 kg payload for Kh-55 class missiles, minimum. That's about Mig-31 and F-111 size, which is realistic.

Range: This is where a fighter bomber gets tricky. Mig-31 has 0.8 M, high altitude combat radius of 1450 km while carrying 2000 kg of munitions (4x R-33) and 16000 kg of fuel.

F-111 has similar ferry range to the Mig-31, so it probably has a similar combat radius too.

That's too short for the Pacific.

So you'll need to stretch the plane even more to accommodate more fuel. I'm not an aerospace engineer, but I can see that at this point you're looking at major changes like increasing the length even more, increasing wing area, etc.
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I've always been a proponent of the JH-XX concept, and feel that it's more useful for China than the H-20 at least for now. With that said, the reason I believe it's more useful is because it can do things that slower and/or non-stealth platform can. Launching a 3000km range missile requires neither speed nor stealth. I mean, it helps, but the gains are probably not worth the effort/cost. IMO the JH-XX's utility would be to launch weapons at fairly close range (within a few hundred kms) and still survive.

A theoretical 6m long missile with Mach 3+ speed, 300-500km range would give <5 minutes of warning if launched from 300km out and have plenty of fuel left for terminal maneuvers. A less stealthy platform like the J-16 or the Su-30MKI can be intercepted before they get within range, while a slower platform like the H-20 can be hunted down after launch as its position would be revealed.

In other words, I don't think such a tactical bomber should be required to internally store large, long-range missiles. Its primary use should be to launch fast missiles at relatively close range to minimize reaction time. It can secondarily be used as an interceptor with its high speed and range, but that AAMs won't be too long either as even the PL-XX appeared to be ~6m in length as well.
 
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Lethe

Lethe

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FairAndUnbiased said:
this is just a thought exercise to see what is roughly possible in terms of dimensions, masses, etc. from known, proven designs.

60 tons full or empty? My estimate is for a 47 ton fully loaded plane: 22000 kg empty, 16000 kg fuel, 9000 kg max payload. Which is basically a Mig-31.

If we're talking 60 tons full , then we're looking at something like ~28000 kg empty, ~20000 kg fuel, ~12000 kg max payload.

That's about 1/2 the size of a Tu-22M or B-1B both in weight ~25-30 tons empty and dimensions ~25-30 m long.

Curiously, I can't find any aircraft historically produced in this weight and dimension range. The closest is the FB-111H with a 25 m long fuselage and H-6 with a 34 m length. Is there a reason for that?
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I am mindful that the discussion should not go further off-track, so this is merely for folks to follow up on themselves according to their interest or lack thereof:

The closest match for these specifications that I can find is Dassault's 1959 Mirage IVB concept that was rejected in favour of the smaller Mirage IVA. It would've been 28 metres long with MTOW of 56-57 tonnes.

4145536_original.jpg

The closest match I can find that actually entered service is Convair's B-58 Hustler.
 
H

Hub

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Lethe said:
I am mindful that the discussion should not go further off-track, so this is merely for folks to follow up on themselves according to their interest or lack thereof:

The closest match for these specifications that I can find is Dassault's 1959 Mirage IVB concept that was rejected in favour of the smaller Mirage IVA. It would've been 28 metres long with MTOW of 56-57 tonnes.

View attachment 117205

The closest match I can find that actually entered service is Convair's B-58 Hustler.
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Actually,This concept more like FB-111A or later Su-34. Based on US Strategic Air Command & Aerospace Museum, FB-111A has empty weight about 50000lb (22.6T), loaded 114300lb (51.8T). conpare with Yankee’s data, 22T(empty weight) + 20T(oil) + 10T(weapons) = 52T, almost the same!

it should be think as a new generation stealth Fighter Bomber.

FB-111A has 2 PW TF30-P-7 with 12,500 lbf (56 kN) dry and 20,350 lbf (90 kN) afterburning thrust. compares with WS-15, Most believe it has military thrust over 105KN and afterburner thrust over 170KN.
 
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ACuriousPLAFan

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Hub said:
Actually,This concept more like FB-111A or later Su-34. Based on US Strategic Air Command & Aerospace Museum, FB-111A has empty weight about 50000lb (22.6T), loaded 114300lb (51.8T). conpare with Yankee’s data, 22T(empty weight) + 20T(oil) + 10T(weapons) = 52T, almost the same!

it should be think as a new generation stealth Fighter Bomber.
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Those aren't Yankee's data.

Those are just speculated information by @horobeyo himself. @horobeyo is the first one to post about Yankee's possible hint on the JH-XX on Twitter.
 
L

latenlazy

Brigadier
Hub said:
Actually,This concept more like FB-111A or later Su-34. Based on US Strategic Air Command & Aerospace Museum, FB-111A has empty weight about 50000lb (22.6T), loaded 114300lb (51.8T). conpare with Yankee’s data, 22T(empty weight) + 20T(oil) + 10T(weapons) = 52T, almost the same!

it should be think as a new generation stealth Fighter Bomber.

FB-111A has 2 PW TF30-P-7 with 12,500 lbf (56 kN) dry and 20,350 lbf (90 kN) afterburning thrust. compares with WS-15, Most believe it has military thrust over 105KN and afterburner thrust over 170KN.
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If you expand the bypass ratio of the WS-15 you can probably get 200 kn. 40 tons of thrust (2 x WS-15 derivative) over 60 tons max takeoff weight gets you a T:W ratio of 0.6 which is right around F-111 and Su-34 range.
 
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Hub

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ACuriousPLAFan said:
Those aren't Yankee's data.

Those are just speculated information by @horobeyo himself. @horobeyo is the first one to post about Yankee's possible hint on the JH-XX on Twitter.
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Sure, I checked the original post, you are right. From yankee’s word, we just know it is a new kind of supersonic fighter with nice stealth capability, spacious bomb bay and more than 5000km range. It can be a FB-111A like fighter/Bomber or next generation air dominance (AKA 6Gen Fighter). If we check the description of NGAD by US Air Force, the key points are almost same. After all, both sides need to face the vast Pacific Ocean.

Maybe, we can see 2 different designs. One will be JH-XX, more Likes a super stealth version FB-111A or Su-34, one is developed from next gen fighter plan.
 
Deino

Deino

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Blitzo said:
…


More broadly, I'm a little confused why everyone is getting so roused up by these statements by Yankee.
Namely, what is the context of these statements? Did he actually suggest or state that this project is actively being worked on now, or is he just describing it notionally.

Also, what are the actual statements by Yankee himself limited to? I don't disagree with Horobeyo's conclusions, but it is important we have proper attribution as to who actually said what.
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Me again with a PS since this thread became for my taste too-much of a what-if discussion.

Therefore, do we know why Yankee came up with his claims right now? Did he get any new information or is it just to tease and mock Western enthusiasts?
 
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Chavez

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Theres a report decade ago,çhinese engineers team manage to exam ukraine tu160 ,possibility including the techical drawing .before itvwas hand back to russia.
 
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