H-20 bomber (with H-X, JH-XX)

Blitzo

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Or his take is accurate and from official sources and the PLA is the one with strange and questionable requirements. We're all just assuming the PLA think act and operate the way we feel is appropriate. Only one group is privileged with the necessary information to determine what's appropriate.

Who knows. They could simply be autistic on this point.

This h-20 topic is kind of limited only to wild speculation except on the unanimous agreement that it will be a vlo strategic bomber.

Uh, that's a hard disagree there.

For H-20 we are well beyond the scope of "wild speculation" and have been educated speculation and informed speculation for a few years now.


I am more wondering why do we think Xi Yazhou is somehow a privileged or demonstrably reliable or reasonable source of information in the first place, and why we should trust his interpretation of rumours and information? Of the various things he has said that are unique to him, my impression is that he doesn't particularly have good sense of military acumen and ability to correlate it with the latest PLA watching information.


The idea that he thinks the announcement could be J-35/XY or J-20AS is ridiculous given both of those made their first flights nearly a year ago.


There are a few people whose credibility and past record should result in the community raising their ears and reconsidering past assumptions if they make a statement that comes out of left field.
Do we think Xi Yazhou is one of them? Or is he just a talking head without any demonstrable track record of note that is unique to himself? Because I put him solidly in the latter.
 

Temstar

Brigadier
Registered Member
More than a year ago (March 2021) Xi Yazhou did this clip talking about the Soviet T-4MS bomber proposal and inferring how H-20 might be similar. In this he very specifically mentioned that lack of vertical stabilizer for B-2 hurts it in the conventional bombing role and that if carefully designed with material that's either absorbent or transparent to radio wave it could have vertical stabilizer and still maintain all aspect stealth.

He envisioned the conventional bombing role to use against mass ROC forces awaiting at the landing sites prior to amphibious forces hit the beach. For this he sited a case of B-2 dropping 80 JDAMs in one go guided by B-2's onboard radar.

Then in April we had this from a magazine showing folding fins:
EwrGROYWgAIStPe.jpg
I recall seeing similar idea from a paper, although in the paper it was using a J-20 for base:
50534787071_66dd4ae68c_o.jpg
50534787031_8b2ef08e18_o.jpg
50534787176_59de5aea29_o.jpg50534787176_59de5aea29_o.jpg
50534939247_c540f62e50_o.jpg
50534787151_dd779088fd_o.jpg

It may be that there are indeed people who think vertical stabilizer is important. Regardless it's not a new position by Xi, he's been saying the same thing for more than a year now so at least he's consistent.
 
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Blitzo

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More than a year ago (March 2021) Xi Yazhou did this clip talking about the Soviet T-4MS bomber proposal and inferring how H-20 might be similar. In this he very specifically mentioned that lack of vertical stabilizer for B-2 hurts it in the conventional bombing role and that if carefully designed with material that's either absorbent or transparent to radio wave it could have vertical stabilizer and still maintain all aspect stealth.

He envisioned the conventional bombing role to use against mass ROC forces awaiting at the landing sites prior to amphibious forces hit the beach. For this he sited a case of B-2 dropping 80 JDAMs in one go guided by B-2's onboard radar.

Then in April we had this from a magazine showing folding fins:
View attachment 93063
I recall seeing similar idea from a paper, although in the paper it was using a J-20 for base:
View attachment 93065
View attachment 93066
View attachment 93067View attachment 93067
View attachment 93068
View attachment 93070

It may be that there are indeed people who think vertical stabilizer is important. Regardless it's not a new position by Xi, he's been saying the same thing for more than a year now so at least he's consistent.

The possible presence of folding vertical tails is something that has been discussed in the past and is something that I myself have stated as a possible feature we might see on H-20, see below post:

The idea of H-20 fielding large numbers of PGMs for large scale bombardment of multiple targets in a single pass is also very reasonable and logical, and one that is obvious. That's not controversial in the least.

Note, the above ideas are ones that other people have come up with and suggested independent of Xi Yazhou.



But the idea of H-20 -- a VLO strategic bomber and an aircraft that is likely to be one of the single most expensive unit aircraft that the PLA would ever purchase -- being designed around a specific need to employ dumb bombs/unguided bombs however, is not one that for the life of me I can entertain as credible.
And as far as I can see, that is an idea that is only unique to him.

Which is my point -- that of the unique ideas suggested by him (and ideas that others have not suggested), none seem particularly credible or noteworthy.



=====


Also, I'm not sure why on earth he would believe that B-2 being a tailless flying wing would be particularly detrimental to "conventional bombing" -- why would anyone in the modern era not conduct conventional bombing at high altitudes using PGMs, where the bombs themselves guide themselves after they leave the weapons bay??
Especially if you're operating a strategic bomber? Especially if you're operating a stealthy strategic bomber?

Simply put:
1. If you're designing and procuring a fleet of new strategic bombers, you should really have the money and technology to buy the PGMs to equip them with, and the PLA certainly does.
2. If for some reason you really had the requirement for your fleet of new strategic bombers to be able to employ dumb bombs with "relative accuracy" then the only way of doing so "aerodynamically" is to fly your strategic bomber at low altitude, which is an obsolete strategy that basically became obsolete in the 1980s if not earlier against any sort of half modern enemy with look down radar. Not to mention that operating at lower altitudes puts you at vulnerability to medium range air defenses that are often not only more widely available but also more mobile, and where you give up more of the VLO advantage of being a stealth bomber?
3. The need to risk a stealthy strategic bomber to drop dumb bombs to begin with, is a ridiculous mission requirement, and while the likelihood might not be zero, but is damned near close to it. It is unironically like the equivalent of employing a stealth fighter to launch unguided forward firing rockets, and for all the jokes about J-20 carrying FFARs, there is a reason why even the PLA have not been that superfluous in actually doing so.

So can someone perhaps explain to me why this suggestion of H-20 being intended to be designed with the ability to employ dumb bombs with "relative precision" to be does not instantly fail the smell test in spectacular fashion?
 
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no_name

Colonel
More than a year ago (March 2021) Xi Yazhou did this clip talking about the Soviet T-4MS bomber proposal and inferring how H-20 might be similar. In this he very specifically mentioned that lack of vertical stabilizer for B-2 hurts it in the conventional bombing role and that if carefully designed with material that's either absorbent or transparent to radio wave it could have vertical stabilizer and still maintain all aspect stealth.

He envisioned the conventional bombing role to use against mass ROC forces awaiting at the landing sites prior to amphibious forces hit the beach. For this he sited a case of B-2 dropping 80 JDAMs in one go guided by B-2's onboard radar.

Then in April we had this from a magazine showing folding fins:
View attachment 93063
I recall seeing similar idea from a paper, although in the paper it was using a J-20 for base:
View attachment 93065
View attachment 93066
View attachment 93067View attachment 93067
View attachment 93068
View attachment 93070

It may be that there are indeed people who think vertical stabilizer is important. Regardless it's not a new position by Xi, he's been saying the same thing for more than a year now so at least he's consistent.
Could be used on unmanned wingman planes first.
 

OppositeDay

Senior Member
Registered Member
Re XYZ's access to privileged information, of Guancha.cn's military news team, I think Shilao and Yankee (or is it the other regular on Shilao's podcast?) have family ties to the PLA. I'm not sure if the same is true for XYZ. Also it's quite telling that Shilao and crew were busy pretending on their recent podcast episodes that the whole "strategic and historic" bombshell hadn't been dropped. Fools rush in...?

Alternatively, maybe XYZ does have access to privileged information. It's just the guancha team decided that they have to say something to attract/keep viewers, and the only way they can go into any detail without being invited for tea is for them to say something that sounds somewhat plausible but is in fact completely wrong.

In any case, XYZ's suggestion that the announcement could be about J-35/XY or J-20AS should not count against his credibility. The protocol is supposed to be for the manufacturer to do the first round of flight testing before moving to CFTE. The reason many people on the Chinese internet dismiss the H-20 possibility is precisely that (they believe and for very good reason) H-20 still hasn't done its maiden flight, so even though CFTE and XAC are neighbors it's out of protocol for CFTE to take over at such an early stage of flight testing.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
Alternatively, maybe XYZ does have access to privileged information. It's just the guancha team decided that they have to say something to attract/keep viewers, and the only way they can go into any detail without being invited for tea is for them to say something that sounds somewhat plausible but is in fact completely wrong.
To be honest, that is exactly what I am dissatisfied and unhappy with a lot of these Chinese current-event online commentators.

  • A lot of them can go bombastic with super clickbaity titles to attract viewerships.
  • A lot of them don't even have concrete topics to discuss and talk about, but because they have to release content once or twice per day, they choose to pump out video that either has little to no new information, and/or basically just repeat the same information over and over again.
  • A lot of them are also regurgitating the information from their peers, i.e. similar commentators on the Internet.
  • Some of them went as far as going hyperbole, or even just invent fake news and information just to rile up their audience and attract even more viewerships.
Therefore, apart from Shilao and some on Guancha, honestly I could only find two Chinese commentators that carry actual weight in their information and news delivery and discussion:

1. Liu Xiaofei (刘晓非说). The commentator is Liu Xiaofei(刘晓非), who is an experienced military expert, analyst and writer.
2. Inspector Lei's Observation Room (瞩望云霄).The commentator is Fu Qianshao(傅前哨). He joined the PLA in 1968, graduated from Northwestern Polytechnic University in 1977, majoring in aerodynamics, and served as a mechanic, sub-captain, editor and director. Now he is the deputy editor of Air Force Aviation Magazine.

Albeit, there are information here and there from these two that can be outdated or inaccurate at times, but both of them are generally very reliable, in my opinion.

Other than those two, some on Guancha, and Shilao (albeit I rarely listened to Shilao, if ever), I couldn't find any other Chinese commentator with comparable weights and calibre as these commentators (or at least, not yet).
 
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Blitzo

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To be honest, that is exactly what I am dissatisfied and unhappy with a lot of these Chinese current-event online commentators.

  • A lot of them can go bombastic with super clickbaity titles to attract viewerships.
  • A lot of them don't even have concrete topics to discuss and talk about, but because they have to release content once or twice per day, they choose to pump out video that either has little to no new information, and/or basically just repeat the same information over and over again.
  • A lot of them are also regurgitating the information from their peers, i.e. similar commentators on the Internet.
  • Some of them went as far as going hyperbole, or even just invent fake news and information just to rile up their audience and attract even more viewerships.
Therefore, apart from Shilao and some on Guancha, honestly I could only find two Chinese commentators that carry actual weight in their information and news delivery and discussion:

1. Liu Xiaofei (刘晓非说). The commentator is Liu Xiaofei(刘晓非), who is an experienced military expert, analyst and writer.
2. Inspector Lei's Observation Room (瞩望云霄).The commentator is Fu Qianshao(傅前哨). He joined the PLA in 1968, graduated from Northwestern Polytechnic University in 1977, majoring in aerodynamics, and served as a mechanic, sub-captain, editor and director. Now he is the deputy editor of Air Force Aviation Magazine.

Albeit, there are information here and there from these two that can be outdated or inaccurate at times, but both of them are generally very reliable, in my opinion.

Other than those two, some on Guancha, and Shilao (albeit I rarely listened to Shilao, if ever), I couldn't find any other Chinese commentator with comparable weights and calibre as these commentators (or at least, not yet).

The other issue is that for some of the people who may not have exclusive insider information, the sheer amount of padding and fluff they put into their commentary is often:

- super obvious and deadbeat simple that doesn't require explicit mentioning (and is useless for those of us who've done PLA and military watching for a while)...
- or they say too much fluff and padding that they actually say something incorrect and illogical in a way that causes some members of the community to go "whaaaaat, they said whaaat??? This is new and changes things!" even though in reality it was just because the commentator was filling up time and probably wasn't thinking that carefully to begin with...



... With the podcast/video format of commentators and invididuals with insider knowledge, it is really important to identify who actually may have insider knowledge versus who doesn't, and also to judge how much general military knowledge competency they may or may not have for them to be able to accurately interpret information that they receive.
Finally, it is important to judge just how much of a podcast or video is actually useful and new information for PLA watching purposes rather than just "no sh*t Sherlock" (for lack of a better expression).


Sometimes if there is no genuinely meaningful content or news to make content about, then perhaps choosing to not make content is the best thing to do, instead of continuing to churn the hamster wheel and wasting the reader/watcher/listener's time and making content that only ends up confusing people resulting in misunderstanding and misinterpretation of significance.
 
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feifeifei

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I honestly don’t see how a Chinese version of B2 would fit into PLAAF's strategy. Of course they are the best student after the US in military equipments but when it comes to how strategic bombers are used PLAAN and USAF have completely different perspective. PLAAF dont have the need to penetrate into hostile airspace at the other side of the earth with bombers. They need a bigger bomber to take out enemy(US) bases/ships in Asia and relatively close to Chinese border. After that the squadron will have to disengage and run back as fast as possible. IMO the Chinese version of B1or Tu160 would be better which would be a reasonable upgrade for the H6 fleet.
 
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