H-20 bomber (with H-X, JH-XX)

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
They keep B-52 because of their super long range (14200 km) while B-1s have far less range (9400 km) and even less combat radius (~5000 km).

Note that they are still planning to use the B-1 as a mid range tactical antiship striker with LRASM integration.

H-6K isn't that great as a tactical striker. It could get shot down long before entering range. Like the B-1, Tu-22M was designed to be a mid range tactical striker with Kh-15s.

The B-52's relatively low cost of operation/maintenance, its ease of integrating new payloads, are the other factors why they will remain in service after B-1s. B-52s remain low cost, large payload, standoff weapons carrying platforms.

Development of a "semi-stealthy Tu-22M" or development of a clean sheet semi-stealthy supersonic bomber will be time consuming and expensive, and will draw resources away from H-20. It most certainly cannot be done quickly. Even a Tu-22M3 project probably be more like 5-8 years than 2-3 years, and with dubious use.
If the PLA had to choose between a true VLO subsonic H-20 and a semi-stealthy supersonic bomber, they will choose H-20 every single day.


H-6K/J/N family aircraft will likely remain in PLA service for quite a long time (albeit likely in reduced number than now) for the same reason why B-52s remain in US service -- because of their relatively low operating cost, and the relative ease of integrating large payloads onto the aircraft. Each of H-6Ks six primary weapons pylons can carry 1.5 tons of ordnance. That's a lot of payload to work with.
And the ventral launch position on H-6N will be able to launch outsized weapons that H-20 likely cannot do.


I would also add that in a modern high intensity conflict, something like Tu-22M3 or B-1 is not that much more survivable than H-6K. Yes, being supersonic allows for superior ingress/egress of course, but the RCS of those aircraft are not sizeable and you would not be deploying such platforms against any sort of enemy that still has a meaningful CAP in place anymore than you would a H-6K or B-52.
All of those aircraft would be launching standoff weapons in a high intensity conflict anyhow.



Now, there have been rumours of a JH-XX, i.e.: a properly stealthy and superonic capable regional bomber, but it would have a payload quite smaller than B-1 and even Tu-22M3. However it is not known if the PLA has committed to such a project yet.

Either way, pursuing a supersonic bomber (either a clean sheet one, semi stealthy one, or a modernized Tu-22M3) is not a simple or short affair and would require substantial dedication of resources, and anything short of a truly stealthy supersonic bomber would not be very survivable in a modern conflict, while being quite costly as well.

A bomber fleet of H-20 supplemented by H-6K/J/Ns is perfectly reasonable and sensible going into the medium term.
 

james smith esq

Senior Member
Registered Member
They keep B-52 because of their super long range (14200 km) while B-1s have far less range (9400 km) and even less combat radius (~5000 km).

Note that they are still planning to use the B-1 as a mid range tactical antiship striker with LRASM integration.

H-6K isn't that great as a tactical striker. It could get shot down long before entering range. Like the B-1, Tu-22M was designed to be a mid range tactical striker with Kh-15s.
I don’t see the H-6 as having much survivability as a YJ-12 launch platform. The ~540 km (generous estimate) max range puts the massive RCS H-6 well within interception-range of a CSF CAP. This is similar to my not being as convinced as some others of the threat of B-1Bs and B-52s armed with LRASMs and JSSMs against targets within the First Island Chain and on the mainland. Their launch-points would place their platforms well within interception-range of PLAAF/ PLANAF forward CAPs.

Also, Tu-22M3s main threat was the Kh-22.
 
Last edited:

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
I don’t see the H-6 as having much survivability as a YJ-12 launch platform. The ~540 km (generous estimate) max range puts the massive RCS H-6 well within interception-range of a CSF CAP. This is similar to my not being as convinced as some others of the threat of B-1Bs and B-52s armed with LRASMs and JSSMs against targets within the First Island Chain and on the mainland. Their launch-points would place their platforms well within interception-range of PLAAF/ PLANAF forward CAPs.

Also, Tu-22M3s main threat was the Kh-22.
B-52s aren't LRASM integrated and B-1s are much more survivable than B-52s (they have RCS management features and can go supersonic).

I suspect that is why they did LRASM integration with B-1s and F-18s first.

I think that China being forced to use H-6K is a very bad idea when there is the possibility of being forced to fight a war within 5-15 years and H-20 seems to be stalled. Bombers are a huge advantage as we see demonstrated over and over again by US and Russia.
 

james smith esq

Senior Member
Registered Member
B-52s aren't LRASM integrated and B-1s are much more survivable than B-52s (they have RCS management features and can go supersonic).

I suspect that is why they did LRASM integration with B-1s and F-18s first.

I think that China being forced to use H-6K is a very bad idea when there is the possibility of being forced to fight a war within 5-15 years and H-20 seems to be stalled. Bombers are a huge advantage as we see demonstrated over and over again by US and Russia.
Aren’t B-52s JASSM integrated?
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Supersonic bombers still have value. H-6 cannot get to the target anywhere near as fast as a Tu-22M or B-1B could.

Higher launch velocity for missiles is a huge boost as well, literally. Supersonic is simply more survivable as well. The H-6 is useful when you have air superiority and somewhat useful even if you don't. Certainly the H-6 is used to carry and launch in the air, ALBM and ALHM as well as serving as the launch platform for the WZ-8. But there is no replacement for supersonic bombing.

If we were to draw a Venn diagram, H6, JH-xx (supersonic stealthy light bomber or attack aircraft), B-2/B-21/H-20, do not overlap much if at all. In fact B-52 barely overlaps with H-6. H-6 modernized versions are smaller equivalents of modernised B-52s but far more limited in payload, range, loiter, speed, and what platforms it can carry as impressive as H-6's carrying of ALBM/ALHM and WZ-8 already is, there's still a huge payload difference.
 

james smith esq

Senior Member
Registered Member
B-52s aren't LRASM integrated and B-1s are much more survivable than B-52s (they have RCS management features and can go supersonic).

I suspect that is why they did LRASM integration with B-1s and F-18s first.

I think that China being forced to use H-6K is a very bad idea when there is the possibility of being forced to fight a war within 5-15 years and H-20 seems to be stalled. Bombers are a huge advantage as we see demonstrated over and over again by US and Russia.
I was, and still am, of the opinion that China should have gone for a shorter-ranged, subsonic, VLO bomber designed specifically for missile strikes within the 2d Island Chain. Most, here, beat me up over that opinion, arguing vehemently to convince themselves that I was incorrect. Oh well, they did convince me!
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
I was, and still am, of the opinion that China should have gone for a shorter-ranged VLO bomber designed specifically for missile strikes within the 2d Island Chain. Most, here, beat me up over that opinion, arguing vehemently to convince themselves that I was incorrect. Oh well, they did convince me!
I believe I was one who agreed with you.

I think people instinctively only want what they consider to be the best equipment to be in the PLA but we have to recognize realistic limitations like time and money.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
The B-52's relatively low cost of operation/maintenance, its ease of integrating new payloads, are the other factors why they will remain in service after B-1s. B-52s remain low cost, large payload, standoff weapons carrying platforms.

Development of a "semi-stealthy Tu-22M" or development of a clean sheet semi-stealthy supersonic bomber will be time consuming and expensive, and will draw resources away from H-20. It most certainly cannot be done quickly. Even a Tu-22M3 project probably be more like 5-8 years than 2-3 years, and with dubious use.
If the PLA had to choose between a true VLO subsonic H-20 and a semi-stealthy supersonic bomber, they will choose H-20 every single day.


H-6K/J/N family aircraft will likely remain in PLA service for quite a long time (albeit likely in reduced number than now) for the same reason why B-52s remain in US service -- because of their relatively low operating cost, and the relative ease of integrating large payloads onto the aircraft. Each of H-6Ks six primary weapons pylons can carry 1.5 tons of ordnance. That's a lot of payload to work with.
And the ventral launch position on H-6N will be able to launch outsized weapons that H-20 likely cannot do.


I would also add that in a modern high intensity conflict, something like Tu-22M3 or B-1 is not that much more survivable than H-6K. Yes, being supersonic allows for superior ingress/egress of course, but the RCS of those aircraft are not sizeable and you would not be deploying such platforms against any sort of enemy that still has a meaningful CAP in place anymore than you would a H-6K or B-52.
All of those aircraft would be launching standoff weapons in a high intensity conflict anyhow.



Now, there have been rumours of a JH-XX, i.e.: a properly stealthy and superonic capable regional bomber, but it would have a payload quite smaller than B-1 and even Tu-22M3. However it is not known if the PLA has committed to such a project yet.

Either way, pursuing a supersonic bomber (either a clean sheet one, semi stealthy one, or a modernized Tu-22M3) is not a simple or short affair and would require substantial dedication of resources, and anything short of a truly stealthy supersonic bomber would not be very survivable in a modern conflict, while being quite costly as well.

A bomber fleet of H-20 supplemented by H-6K/J/Ns is perfectly reasonable and sensible going into the medium term.
If there's no difference in survivability how come B-1s were the first to be integrated with LRASM while B-52s aren't?

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Faster speed also means superior range on both missiles and unpowered weapons.

It doesn't need to be semistealthy. You are correct it'll take too long. The Tu-22M3 has a good airframe as is. So you don't change airframe or materials significantly as that would require rebalancing the entire aircraft. But there's some easy upgrades that China can do in cooperation with Russia and an order for new airframes, as well as helping Russia modernize their own fleet so that China can get a discount from, if nothing else, then at least economies of scale:

1. Fly by wire
2. Glass cockpit
3. Modernized radar
4. Built in targeting sensors
5. Some improvement of intake ducts, machining tolerances and coatings to reduce overall weight and slightly decrease RCS
6. Integration with Chinese munitions and datalink on the Chinese versions and first time integration with other Russian platforms on the Russian version

This would vastly improve the Russian fleet (which helps China) and also gives China a vastly superior interim solution than the H-6.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
If there's no difference in survivability how come B-1s were the first to be integrated with LRASM while B-52s aren't?

Because against the PLA, the B-1 is slightly more survivable than B-52.

For the PLA against the US, a supersonic bomber will not be much more survivable than a subsonic bomber.


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Because of the respective missions they were tasked with during the US war on terror where the B-1 was given more of a CAS function than the B-52 which retained its nuclear deterrent role.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Faster speed also means superior range on both missiles and unpowered weapons.

It doesn't need to be semistealthy. The Tu-22M3 has a good airframe as is. It'll take too long to change airframe or materials significantly as that would require rebalancing the entire aircraft. But there's some easy upgrades that China can do in cooperation with Russia and an order for new airframes, as well as helping Russia modernize their own fleet so that China can get a discount from, if nothing else, then at least economies of scale:

1. Fly by wire
2. Glass cockpit
3. Modernized radar
4. Built in targeting sensors
5. Some improvement of intake ducts, machining tolerances and coatings to reduce overall weight and slightly decrease RCS
6. Integration with Chinese munitions and datalink on the Chinese versions and first time integration with other Russian platforms on the Russian version

This would vastly improve the Russian fleet (which helps China) and also gives China a vastly superior interim solution than the H-6.

I think you are vastly underestimating the cost, complexity and time needed for such a venture.


If they could somehow get such a project done and finished within 2-3 years, sure it might be worth the money.

But given the complexity of those airframes and given the scale of the modifications you describe, it will probably be closer to 10 years.
 
Top