Germany Carl Zeiss, heart of Dutch ASML Lithography Equipment.

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Canuck place

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EUV litho can wait. Domestic litho can wait....

The most urgent matter...

The most critical aspect for Huawei is 7nm process for its 5G base station chipset tiangang and cellphone Baloong 5000.

SMIC needs to work around the clock to rush to N+1 process.

China needs this process for its own 5G infrastructure domestically to say the least

The Clock is ticking.... Tick, tick, tick....

Had chinese government injecting that money1 yr earlier instead of yesterday so SMIC can hire more engineers to do parallel, N+1 could have come out by now instead targeting end of this year.

That doesnt leave enough margin for error , does it?

Kind of reminds me how they slow react to virus.
Only when huge problem show up in their face, they start to get their butt off chair.
They really wait for shit start to fly before they act.

I agree with a lot for stuff you say but as a medical professional with colleagues who are medical epidemiologists, I just have to push back against the narrative that the government was slow to respond to the virus.

I know this isn't the appropriate thread here but I'd like to reply this once. If you look at the sequence of events, the central government was actually quite fast at responding to the virus. The Wuhan govt was a little slow but we have to keep in mind that this was an entirely new virus and we did not know a lot about it at the time. These pneumonias occur all the time in society and we usually chalk it up to the flu. Testing, especially early on, is usually not very sensitive and difficult to create the test since you need RT PCR etc. I won't go into details.

The infamous post by the WHO which said there is not evidence of human to human transmission actually meant no SUSTAINED human to human transmission. They were clear that there were LIMITED human to human transmission. There is a big difference which was not shown in the twitter post but very clearly communicated in their messaging to all countries. Of course western countries just focus on that one post. To deflect blame.

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Overall from a medical POV, I thought the govt moved quite quickly to contain a new virus, and much better than many other counties. I acctually feel they were too cautious and should have opened up a little faster.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
You can think the base station as the server and the cellphone as the client. How can you have a server running slower than the client??

On the flip side you can have client phone running slower than the server.

So, you have it reversed.

SMIC will support huawei thats why we seeing tje government fund invested in SMIC. Government owns parts of SMIC now.

But the base station can use much bigger power (electricity), unlike a smartphone (battery). Base station, even with a slower chip, can have many many chips there
 

AndrewS

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Registered Member
What you proposing is exactly US government strategy. Kill Huawei by blocking it from accessing 5nm and let Vivo, Xiaomi , Lenovo, other Chinese firms thrive by propagating US semiconductor leadership.


Heresy

No, have another think about what would happen if only Chinese-designed 5nm chips were allowed for domestic sales.

It still allows Vivo, Xiaomi ,Lenovo and other Chinese firms to use sell products using 5nm OUTSIDE of China.
Huawei has lost this market anyway.

But inside China, all Chinese companies are banned from using 5nm 5G chips.

At the moment, Huawei is the only company that can design its own 5G chips, and the other companies will take some time to catch up.
So in effect, all Chinese companies are barred from selling 5nm 5G chips inside China.

But it provides a huge incentive for every Chinese smartphone company to support advanced chip design inside China.
It also provides the market for a domestic Chinese company to replace Synopsys and Cadence chip design software.

In the long-run, when those other Chinese companies have caught up, yes, Huawei is going to suffer inside China.
But by that point, the policy can be re-evaluated.

Maybe SMIC will have caught up and uses domestic tech?
Maybe China will then change its policy so that only Chinese-made 5nm chips can be sold domestically?

In that case, Chinese-designed 5nm chips will compete (successfully) against Apple and Qualcomm in international markets.
And all those Chinese companies will be supporting the development of a Chinese semiconductor manufacturing industry, for domestic sales.
That is in the interests of Huawei, if it is still banned from US technology content.

Remember that Huawei is not going to die. The worst case scenario is that Huawei shrinks but still operates

And the objective is for the Chinese semiconductor industry to become leading-edge in every respect.
Whilst Huawei might be the standard-bearer for Chinese technology now, the overall health of the Chinese technology industry in the future is more important.
 

AndrewS

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Registered Member
It’s a question of priorities. The 5G base stations are more important than consumer product chips. The base stations don’t need EUV and I think 14nm works just fine

Yes, 5G base stations are more important.

Base stations don't have the production volumes to justify 5nm chips.
And they don't need the energy efficiency of those chips, because they are connected to the electricity grid.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Yes definitely need retaliation but need to be strategic. Companies like apply employ a lot of ppl in China. And China has less tools for retaliation without self harm compared to the US. I say limit rare earths first to the US. And limit rare earth processing for the US. Having access to rare earth in China should give China an advantage in future IC development as it is cheaper to have access to rare earths.

I would say Qualcomm should be the first target.
It brings almost nothing to China.

Rare earths is too indiscriminate.
 

nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
SMIC will support huawei thats why we seeing tje government fund invested in SMIC. Government owns parts of SMIC now.
If Huawei turns to SMIC to manufacture their custom designs, the same sanctions will be slapped on SMIC and they will no longer be able to buy ASML equipment. This is part of the broader US plan to stifle China's ability to compete at the state-of-the-art level. Watch this unfold.

On the other hand, they will be open to Huawei buying Qualcomm designs. This is the sort of dependency they want to maintain.
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
I wrote an email to Huawei

I suggest them to go out and buy as much second hand equipment as possible and set up a fab named as Huawei semiconductor fab.

This is done parallel while SMIC is manufacturing for huawei, huawei needs to setup its own fab.

Then licensing SMIC 14nm process and hire SMIC as consultant to run the fab. Also hire a bunch of new engineers and have SMIC trained on them.
As soon as SMIC N+1 ready, it will licensed as well.
This is not pretty but needed to be done

I think this is a must so that Huawei wont be implicate other Chinese companie in the long run
This level.of separation is needed. You dont want to drag other Chinese companies into this mess if you can.

At the end of day, the chips must have marking of huawei manufactured.

Its better for huawei this way in the future as it master the semiconductor process and manufacturing tech like a samsung and intel.

Huawei is the most aggressive mindseted chinese company and i want to see to put that in good use. I want them to aggressively driving China EUV industry. Chinese government cant do it and maybe huawei leadership can.


If SMIC explicitly supported Huawei in building its own fabs, I think it highly likely that the US government will find an excuse to sanction SMIC. That implicates SMIC which is far bigger blow than the current Huawei sanctions.

So your proposal is NOT a solution.

And think about it. If Huawei had started building and operating semiconductor fabs 5 years ago, today, it would still be using a lot of US equipment like Samsung or TSMC. Without EUV machines from ASML, Huawei and SMIC would still be stuck on DUV nodes (14nm/7nm), whilst Samsung and TSMC moved ahead.

So I don't think it is a good idea Huawei to get involved in the actual semiconductor fabs. Best to leave it to SMIC and the other Chinese fabs.

So the strategy still has to be Huawei supporting companies who produce semiconductor equipment and software that has absolutely no US content.

Remember that Huawei aggressively driving EUV technology development in China doesn't require Huawei to setup its own fab.
 

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
If Huawei turns to SMIC to manufacture their custom designs, the same sanctions will be slapped on SMIC and they will no longer be able to buy ASML equipment. This is part of the broader US plan to stifle China's ability to compete at the state-of-the-art level. Watch this unfold.

On the other hand, they will be open to Huawei buying Qualcomm designs. This is the sort of dependency they want to maintain.
If SMIC explicitly supported Huawei in building its own fabs, I think it highly likely that the US government will find an excuse to sanction SMIC. That implicates SMIC which is far bigger blow than the current Huawei sanctions.

So your proposal is NOT a solution.

And think about it. If Huawei had started building and operating semiconductor fabs 5 years ago, today, it would still be using a lot of US equipment like Samsung or TSMC. Without EUV machines from ASML, Huawei and SMIC would still be stuck on DUV nodes (14nm/7nm), whilst Samsung and TSMC moved ahead.

So I don't think it is a good idea Huawei to get involved in the actual semiconductor fabs. Best to leave it to SMIC and the other Chinese fabs.

So the strategy still has to be Huawei supporting companies who produce semiconductor equipment and software that has absolutely no US content.

Remember that Huawei aggressively driving EUV technology development in China doesn't require Huawei to setup its own fab.
Its mighty difficult to prove what Huawei have in terms of second hand equipments. How do you know they got US equipments?

Writings on the wall, SMIC gonna support Huawei.
 
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